Trans People

[Lovenliving]

It is eye opening to see all the concerns that people on here and generally have around toilets and wards and sharing space with men. Even when they identify as women.

I do wonder if they see any parallels with how Black people might feel around white people. Personally, I am not worried about a man being in the toilets, I am worried that some sort of race related incident will occur while me and my loved ones are in a enclosed space without witnesses. I am worried that my stud relatives and friends who are already seen as masculine due to their Blackness will be harassed by white people while they frequent women's spaces.

I worry about how this idea that all men are an equal danger to women impacts on my Black teenage son in terms of how white women treat him in public and at work. I saw him go from Black boy to Black man and how people responded to him differently as a result. Normalising this response to men without understanding your own racial bias will increase microaggressions against Black people. White women will believe it is ok to treat Black men like dangerous predators and definitely more dangerous than men who are white. This isnt something we need more of for Black people. It kills Black men.

Honestly, in the grand scale of living as a Black mother in the UK, this trans issue is so far from my radar as things that mess up our life as a Black family in the UK. The thought that out of 100 people I might meet in a public bathroom, 1 might have been born a boy. It highlights how different at least my life is from the average white woman on Mumsnet.

It's not just 'fake trans' men though. Leaving aside the difficulty of determining who is a 'true' transwoman, transwomen have identical sexual & violent offending rates to biological men who do not identify as trans.

Don't you think third spaces are a better option? I can understand your worry for your friend.

How is men entering women’s spaces a “white women’s issue”?

The OP and other black women feel racism is a bigger issue to them - that’s understandable. Men entering women’s spaces is a bigger issue to me bc i’m not black and therefore don’t experience racism.

Doesn’t mean I don’t care about both though?

It seems so reductive.

1. it really , really wouldn’t have. There’s a reason this board was created, and looking at this thread it didn’t help much, at least on these issues.
2. OP expressed concerns in how the trans issues affect her life and the lives of her loved ones. Direct effects of the ruling. It doesn’t mean that the ruling should be reversed, it doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t care . Listening to her , does not detract from that. Thinking of solutions on a larger scale, or a personal scale, even if just to stop and think does not detract from that. Considering what she’s saying does not detract from that. Acknowledging what she’s saying does not detract from that.

She’s afraid. We were/are afraid. Surely you can relate to that? Remember how it was when we were shut down and told to stop being so silly and all the other bullshit and attacks? You’re doing the same thing.

I think there may be a fair few trans allies on here trying to be goady.

Why what do you think I meant?

I was on a cardiac ward, about twenty men and two women. The alternatives for me was a specialist ward with experienced cardiac nurses, adjacent to the cathlab which was mixed sex or a female general ward. I was keen to survive so no contest. If other people want less specialised care I guess it is their risk to take it never occurred to me to ask to be on a female ward.

Several posts deleted - at least 5

reported for minimising OP experience

Omg, is this a real post or a troll to cause an argument? OP has seemingly disappeared...

It feels like the post was worded in a way to cause arguments and division. Do we have to bite???

• Yes, OP is (and others here) are concerned about racism.
• Yes, trans issues don't feel salient to OP (and some others here)
• Yes, for many people on MN (and in the world) trans issues are highly important
• Yes, for many people on MN issues around racism are not salient - at least not in the way described by people on this post.

Now let the different camps are argue amongst each other...

Thank you for explaining. I'm really sorry you had to go through that : I'm sure nearly any woman would have made that choice, even if they hated the idea of a mixed ward.

I still think there should be single sex ward options always available. This something that should be worked towards...

I do think in terms of toilets - the single cubicle toilets that have a toilet and a sink in one little room (sorry I can’t think of a better way to describe them!) and are gender neutral would be better across the board for everyone. Space being an issue here. Similar could work for changing rooms I think. So rather than a third space, all spaces are for everyone but all offer privacy if that makes sense?

Omg you can’t see the truth and now are going in another direction - it must be a conspiracy - because you can’t accept what the black and Asian posters are telling you -

I didn’t know what you meant - I was genuinely curious! Couldn’t work out whether you meant the OP was a troll or something, that was all

Right I’m off to bed - will order the book against white feminism

was interesting to read authors journey

night night all 🥰

Exactly, they're literally comparing black women to biological men. Racist and misogynistic.

Sorry my experience seems to annoy you. I felt safe on the ward, I was more concerned about the care I was receiving for a heart condition which was more of a threat than the sick men on the ward.

Our local public toilets have been changed like that.

I see what you mean.. however, this doesn't solve the issue of transwomen retaining male-pattern offending rates for sexual & violent crimes.

There's all sorts of reasons women may not want to change or go to loo with biological men, surgery or not. Assault victims. Members of conservative religious groups like Haredi Jews, conservative Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs etc Or just a basic hard boundary around privacy that many, many women have. There needs to be an option that respects this. Third spaces, yes, but they must not be the only option.

The real issue is that you shouldn’t have to choose between excellent care and privacy/safety. Ideally, you would’ve had both. It’s not a bad thing to strive for/aspire to.

Yes, I think you’re right and I’m out.

Really sorry I fell for the bait and shocked that my very innocuous posts got deleted for “minimising the OP’s (who has disappeared entirely) experience”

It seems some people do just want an echo chamber on here - it kind of explains the unhinged-ness though!

I really hope the OP’s and chippingcleghorns etc refusal to admit there is any problem with men entering women’s spaces and that we “white women“ shouldn’t fight against it or discuss it doesn’t turn around and bite them on the arse one day.

I can only say thanks to the women who do care and are fighting against it - resulting in the UK Supreme Court case ruling that sex is assigned at birth 🥳

Your personal feelings should be respected. But this doesn't mean that the personal feelings of women who would NOT want to be on a mixed ward should be ignored.

But this doesn't undermine the main point. As women, we should be entitled to safe healthcare, tailored to our unique needs (which includes race and ethnicity specific considerations). We are about 200 years behind on this, unfortunately.

We should never be in a position of having to compromise, manage our expectations when it comes to our safety, especially when we're vulnerable.

A mixed ward is far from ideal. Exposure to biological men in facilities where we as women are particularly vulnerable is entirely unacceptable and abhorrent. It's OK for us all to agree on this even if we haven't been directly affected or threatened, and regardless of what we look like.

The thing is if you are in a&e and they are fitting a portable defibrillator just to move you to the ward it sort of concentrates the mind on what matters to you. I know what mattered to me. That ward was amazing and the Sister was the best nurse and most effective manager Ive ever known. Truly the mixed issue was so low on my priorities.

RE my friend - everyone on here will roll their eyes at this and say ‘we can always tell!’ but honestly - you wouldn’t know she was trans. She’s 5”6, petite, very pretty, has a vagina. I don’t see where somebody like that fits into the debate? Because she certainly couldn’t go into a male prison if she committed fraud for example, she would end up as a victim of rape herself!

I think if a man has used his status as a ‘trans woman’ to commit violence against a woman, then they absolutely should go to a male prison. The whole discussion is so nuanced and there’s so many different variables that genuinely - I don’t see a solution that either party will be happy with

I'd prob just be pissed off with their snoring. NHS is struggling, beds will be taken no matter which sex these days, it's become about treatment.

Personally speaking, I detest the fact hospitals disregard women in other areas. I remember going into the gynae ward with suspected ovarian cancer and to have a laparoscopy, being told that (probably) need a full hyst and losing the chance to have children aged 30. Right next door to my ward was maternity. Seemed rather cruel.

I have seen this set up in a few different hospitals.

I can't see that hospital being able to set up an equivalent ward just for women. Two women and twenty men, the day I was discharged it was no women and twenty men. No one, man or woman, wants to pay the taxes to have two fully staffed and equipped cardiac wards with those numbers. I suppose the alternative would be women being blue lighted to units in a big city. No thanks what we have works well.

Your experience did not annoy me. I thought it was relevant to the discussion that your individual experience whilst of importance to you, does not negate the valid concerns of many other women . And now the law agrees.

In the situation you described I would have been forced to make the same choice. The point is, no woman should have to make these compromises on safety.