Trans People

[Lovenliving]

It is eye opening to see all the concerns that people on here and generally have around toilets and wards and sharing space with men. Even when they identify as women.

I do wonder if they see any parallels with how Black people might feel around white people. Personally, I am not worried about a man being in the toilets, I am worried that some sort of race related incident will occur while me and my loved ones are in a enclosed space without witnesses. I am worried that my stud relatives and friends who are already seen as masculine due to their Blackness will be harassed by white people while they frequent women's spaces.

I worry about how this idea that all men are an equal danger to women impacts on my Black teenage son in terms of how white women treat him in public and at work. I saw him go from Black boy to Black man and how people responded to him differently as a result. Normalising this response to men without understanding your own racial bias will increase microaggressions against Black people. White women will believe it is ok to treat Black men like dangerous predators and definitely more dangerous than men who are white. This isnt something we need more of for Black people. It kills Black men.

Honestly, in the grand scale of living as a Black mother in the UK, this trans issue is so far from my radar as things that mess up our life as a Black family in the UK. The thought that out of 100 people I might meet in a public bathroom, 1 might have been born a boy. It highlights how different at least my life is from the average white woman on Mumsnet.

I didn’t report you

Apologies - I misread it! Haven’t got my glasses on. I do disagree re the homosexual transsexual comment though. I don’t know what more people want - they’re annoyed when trans women don’t have surgery, but when they do they’re castrating themselves. They’re concerned about them raping women - if they’re not attracted to women then they’re ’homosexual’. She’s lived as a woman, for nearly 20 years. She has a husband and a life, she’s never been on a single sex ward, she’s never bothered anybody in the toilets (apart from possibly to ask somebody about where their top is from!), I trust her with my kids as do many of our other friends. She literally just wants to exist without any of this discourse

Homosexual transsexual is the scientitic term, invented by sexologist Ray Blanchard. It's referring to biological sex (ie. Biologically homosexual since attraction is defined on the basis of biological sex in biology) . It's not an insult, or meant to suggest someone shouldn't transition.

I didn't use it to suggest your friend shouldn't transition or shouldn't be treated equally. I support the right to transition and not be treated badly on the basis of being trans. I just don't want that to come at the cost of women's spaces.

👏 👏 👏

Exactly. I get people not knowing this as it was hushed up for a long time and even when it was in the news, people are busy. But denying its problems is another matter.

I’m interested in the term transsexual. I’m under no illusions that somebody can change their biological sex - it’s not possible. Which is why the term transgender makes sense to me, you are changing your gender. But the term transsexual would indicate the person is changing sex?

“Black women's issues become (even more) unimportant to white women, who try to tell black women that "of course" their feminism is inclusive whilst focusing on the tiny percentage of transwomen, and ignoring the much bigger and more relevant issues facing black and Asian women.”

🙄 Oh the magic myth of the ‘tiny percentage’. We are talking about ALL men. Create a loophole that lets one in, you think all the predators, rapists, weirdos, opportunists, trouble makers and perverts will respect the ‘gender’ differentiation? No. You and your little girls will no longer be safe using women’s toilets even if you tell yourself that it’s just a ‘small percentage’ of lovely transwomen joining them.

That isn't what she's said. She's talking about probability and her lived experience. If you've never suffered the ill effects of apples but get sick a lot of the time from eating oranges, you're only going to avoid oranges.

Personally, I am not worried about a man being in the toilets, I am worried that some sort of race related incident will occur while me and my loved ones are in a enclosed space without witnesses.

The probability of her suffering some sort of race related incident is much great than encountering danger from a man being in the toilets.

This is based on HER OWN lived experience. Saying why she's not bothered about trans women.

Intersectional feminism was hijacked by men who pretend to be women so that they could pretend that having meat and two veg is exactly the same as have afro-textured hair and a higher melanin content in your skin. It's not, because a man can use his meat and two veg to impregnate women, whilst no Black woman can ever do that. TRAs hijacking of intersectional feminism is racist.

Not only did TRAs hijack intersectional feminism, they are often themselves racist. Jonathan "wax my balls" Yaniv targetted brown women in Canada when running his campaign to coerce women to touch his genitalia or else face a lawsuit. At FiLiA a couple of years ago, TRAs stood outside shouting at any woman who walked in, including a Black woman attending a different event at the same building. They told her "you should get a weave", a comment clearly referring to her afro-textured hair. These people are no one's allies but their own.

As for gatekeeping womanhood: if you can't or won't say what women and girls are, you can't protect them. How can activists like Hibo Wardere work to protect women and girls from FGM if we pretend that we don't know what "female" is? Pretending that men can become women undermines the rights of women of all races. It's bad enough that a migrant woman whose husband has turned violent has to try to navigate the conditions of NRPF without her finding a man at the refuge as well. The widespread pretence that men can become women is an existential crisis for women, an emergency that cannot be ignored, and it is so frustrating to be bogged down fighting it when I'd far rather be campaigning on other issues that affect women. I don't feel like I have a choice but to prioritise fighting this.

Another one, and it's pretty niche.

Autistic Black children are more likely to have their symptoms dismissed as "naughtiness" and so are less likely to be diagnosed and get the support they need. It's not the only factor contributing to the undertreatment of autistic Black people, but it's the one that staff in educational settings contribute to because of bias.

Hypothesis: It seems self-evident to me that Black autistic people will be doubly-disadvantaged when it comes to avoiding beatings, sexual assault, fights, and arrest, compared to their white neurotypical counterparts. A person's ability to navigate hostile behaviour (I include sexual predation as a form of hostility) from others depends on their social skills, which autistic people don't have much of. Black people face more hostility than white people because of racism. So the Black autistic person faces more instances of hostility, and in each instance they have a greater chance of it ending badly for them. I expect that the effect of the two together would combine multiplicatively, not additively.

They have and it's an example of entryism. Their "allyship" has strings attached.

If you collapse in a toilet that doesn't have a gap at the bottom of the door, no one will see that you've collapsed and it might only be the following morning when the cleaner comes in and finds your loo locked that you are discovered. The gaps are there for safety and hygiene, and they can only exist in a single-sex toilet.

Vulnerable men can be, and are, accommodated in the male prison estate.

Not all single-occupant self-contained loos are Sano2s. At work, the doors open inwards, no automatic opening, and in a dead-end stub corridor. If you fainted and hit your head on the way down, it would be the cleaner the following day who would find you.

Exactly.

This lady, the US blogger Afro Felines, has an excellent post on this. She has a lot of opinions I don't agree with, including some in the post itself. But the main thrust of her post re trans issues & black women's rights is spot on.

https://afrofelines.blogspot.com/2025/04/conflating-transphobia-with-misogynoir.html?m=1

But it is possible to have these toilets. Shouldn't we aim for safe toilets?

In a medium- to high-traffic environment, the safest, most cost-effective, most space-efficient toilets, that will continue to work during a powercut because they don't rely on "smart" technology, are the single-sex rows of cubicles with the sinks outside the cubicle. These are also the most time-efficient because you aren't blocking someone else from using the loo whilst you wash your hands.

@Lovenliving Good to see you are nothing if not consistent. I see you have added a black son for 'authenticity'.

Gold medal for whataboutery.

Walking into them at night, probably empty except for the person intending to attack you lurking in one of the cubicles does not make a safe environment. How do I know? Ive prepared the files following complaints when I worked in police admin. I only remember one with a successful prosecution and that was because the target was a police officer who promptly arrested them.

I wouldn't walk into one of them alone at night because I know what can happen. Nice private toilet opening onto a public place is safer and I think the expense is worth it.

What you've described is an example of the kind of low-traffic environment where Sano2s opening onto a public place are the safest option. In theatres, schools, large workplaces, shopping centres, and anywhere else with high traffic, the big room with cubicles is the better option. There isn't a single option that's right for everywhere.

Great post : pushing one-size-fits-all is NOT the answer

I don't think it was ever used to mean actual sex change.

I know it's lazy to use AI and I will check this later... but for now, Grok's summary seems fairly plausible to me..

The key point you're raising: Did "transsexual" imply literally changing biological sex (e.g., chromosomes, reproductive capacity)?
No, not in the modern biological sense. Even back then, doctors and researchers like Benjamin understood that surgery and hormones could modify sexual characteristics (appearance, function of genitals, hormone levels) but not core biological sex markers like chromosomes or full reproductive biology. The procedures were called "sex reassignment surgery" or "sex change operations" in media and medical contexts at the time, but this was more about aligning the body as closely as possible with the person's gender identity to alleviate severe distress (what we now call gender dysphoria). It was never claimed to literally rewrite DNA or enable natural reproduction in the new role.

What do you mean? Do you think OP is lying?

I saw the post when it came up yesterday and she'd already mentioned the son..nothing has been added.

Think they’re referring to past posts rather than this one

That’s fine thanks - i just always considered transsexual an outdated term anyway so this would seem to confirm that