Trans People

[Lovenliving]

It is eye opening to see all the concerns that people on here and generally have around toilets and wards and sharing space with men. Even when they identify as women.

I do wonder if they see any parallels with how Black people might feel around white people. Personally, I am not worried about a man being in the toilets, I am worried that some sort of race related incident will occur while me and my loved ones are in a enclosed space without witnesses. I am worried that my stud relatives and friends who are already seen as masculine due to their Blackness will be harassed by white people while they frequent women's spaces.

I worry about how this idea that all men are an equal danger to women impacts on my Black teenage son in terms of how white women treat him in public and at work. I saw him go from Black boy to Black man and how people responded to him differently as a result. Normalising this response to men without understanding your own racial bias will increase microaggressions against Black people. White women will believe it is ok to treat Black men like dangerous predators and definitely more dangerous than men who are white. This isnt something we need more of for Black people. It kills Black men.

Honestly, in the grand scale of living as a Black mother in the UK, this trans issue is so far from my radar as things that mess up our life as a Black family in the UK. The thought that out of 100 people I might meet in a public bathroom, 1 might have been born a boy. It highlights how different at least my life is from the average white woman on Mumsnet.

Leaving aside the difficulty of determining who is a 'true' transwoman, transwomen have identical sexual & violent offending rates to biological men who do not identify as trans.

Actually transwomen have higher offending rates than biological men. I forget the exact figures but it's something like 60% of the transwomen in prison are there for sexual offences, as compared to about 20% of biological male prisoners.

I've seen it as well. Seemed awful, I can't imagine the pain.

I'm glad it wasn't a big issue for you. Can you not have empathy for women who would not have felt that way, though?

You're missing the larger point : mixed wards are not ideal as the only option. Specialist cardiac etc wards may have to be mixed due to staffing shortages & efficiency reasons. But the common preference for single sex wards should be accommodated wherever possible, and is. In cases of dementia or other mental issues, for one, this can be crucial for women's safety.

Your friend certainly shouldn't be put in a male prison. Many male prisons have special wings where vulnerable prisoners like effeminate gay men may be put.

Can I ask a question about your friend? Are they attracted to men or women? I understand if you'd rather not discuss anymore.

Equally it's completely unrealistic to suggest individual cubicles and changing spaces.

We can all dream big, but the reality is we have to work with what we've got.

Allowing biological men in women's toilets and changing rooms is not the way forward and this shouldn't even be a debate.

We got to the stage of the NHS and local governments removing the language such as women, mothers, breastfeeding etc. Where NHS pages referring to cervical cancer did not mention the word "woman" after a recent update (I hope this has been changed now). None of this is acceptable and it's outright dangerous to all of us and to our sex-based rights.

These are pan-race issues and whilst in reality accomodating everyone (meaning inclusive of transpeople, for clarity) fully is difficult or impossible, accomodations should never be done at the expense of us, women, which has always been the case.

Thank you, excellent point. Sorry for forgetting!

Honestly the snoring wasnt bad, it was much worse when I was on a maternity ward. I was in a bay with the other woman, the desk the nurses used was next to my bed so nurses talking was a bigger issue. We had a separate women's toilet and bathroom from the men, the ward was arranged so we were close to the women's facilities and didn't have to pass men to get to them. Barely saw any men as it wasn't the sort of ward where people were wandering about and lots of close observation due to lots of seriously sick people.

10 or 15 years ago? Exactly where you think . Sadly, it was never about the toilets. Definitely not just about the toilets, which is why it wasn’t such a big issue years ago. We kind of vaguely coexisted well enough.

Men - so has absolutely no desire towards any woman who is in the toilet with her. TBH she’s the person who made me see that when people are genuinely trans, it’s literally just who they are. I think she came out as gay when she was about 13/14, then not long after realised she was trans

In my town the toilet blocks have all been modernised and changed to separate self contained toilets which are equally for men, women, disabled and baby changing. If my town can do it then it is possible.

I'm glad your town is so capable, you must recognise not every town or set of premises can offer the same, though. You can continue to argue the day is night if you wish, but it only takes one look to recognise the reality.

Maybe we should campaign for those facilities in all towns and cities. It can be done. They actually feel much safer than the old blocks.

I'm not arguing anything by the way. Just stating facts.

Floor to ceiling cubicles are dangerous for some people though, such as people with epilepsy. And given there is a higher prevalence of epilepsy in the black community, that's an issue that hopefully we can all agree on.

Oh, I just wanted to add that I went back and looked to see which of my posts had been deleted as chippingcleghorn seems to think most of mine have been (probs bc they reported them) as they were so offensive.

None of my posts were deleted - so that poster either can’t read or is in another reality, as I suspected.

Night all!

Aha, so your friend is a HSTS (homosexual transsexual).

People like your friend are usually quite different from female-atttacted transwomen,who are the ones who often have AGP and are just as likely (or maybe more) to sexually offend against women as non-trans biological men are.

They are showing as deleted for me

Your post at 21:19 was deleted, though.

So bizarre to ask me a question just to be rude back? I was perfectly polite to you. She’s not going to attack anybody. I’ve known her 20 years. She’s a transgender woman - not a homosexual transsexual.

They are well designed with doors opening outwards onto public areas. The doors remain locked for a set time, 15 minutes I think, unless you press for more time the door opens. If you think of the old style blocks at quiet times you could be undiscovered for some time.

The designers obviously considered the same issue as you.

Having said that my husband hates them as you have to pay by contactless card and he swears his card never works so I pay for him. He might just be robbing me.

Well they’re not for me, that’s strange. I wonder if they just delete them for the people that reported them to shut them up 😂

I'm sorry you felt I was being rude. I didn't mean to be.

I was saying that people like your friend are NOT the ones most women are worried about. The transwomen most women worry about are the ones attracted to women.

You're welcome to campaign if you wish. I would like to retain female-only and male-only facilities personally, with separate accommodations for disabled users and separate accommodations for trans users. Where this is not possible it usually means space is very limited, in which case personally I agree that a mixed, individual cubicle/s should be provided - only where necessary.

We should never be in a position whereby female specific rights are blurred, where we are no longer called female. Anyone not seeing where this leads is honestly narrow-minded. BW and BAME women in particular have suffered for years and still do in the context of inadequate healthcare, lack of research, always being an afterthought across STEM. Now there have been attempts at erasing and redefining the term "woman". Where would this take us? Back to the Middle Ages, instead of moving forward and investing in all-female specific research and improvements in care and in particular in BW and BAMEW specific research and care. We must never be shortsighted on this issue.

Ah, there was one thanks Carla786
The one where I wrote “you don’t care about trans issues because you experience racism”?

That’s literally what I said and it got deleted. That’s mad.

Good luck to you on here anyway 😂

I can’t see anything rude in Carla’s response? Just facts
If your friend is attracted to men, he is a homosexual male. In a dress and make up etc.

The way the issue evolved and played out meant that we couldn’t afford to differentiate between genuine transwomen and “suck my lady cock” transwomen, especially when it came to law.

Rape was denied to have happened in a hospital by the NHS because there were only women present.
Self ID meant than any bloke could go anywhere he wanted on his say so. It meant that he could sue a beautician for refusing to was his balls , he could sue a doctor for refusing to inspect his “cervix”, he could sue this or that place for refusing him access. He could sue or campaign for the closure of rape centres for not employing him/allowing him access.
Violent sex offenders were moved to women’s prisons … you can guess what happened.
Children were mutilated, sterilised , maimed in the name of the trans cult.
Women being evicted from sports.
Women being erased from literature and language, even on female specific issues.
Babies breastfed by a man with artificially induced milk .
Men winning woman of the year awards.
Men swapping genders from one day to another.
So many, many issues , in every single area with so many victims in so many different ways. From sexual violence, to lawsuits, to job losses, to safety issues, to women beaten black and blue in a sport . Like I said before, it wasn’t just about the toilets.