Trans People

[Lovenliving]

It is eye opening to see all the concerns that people on here and generally have around toilets and wards and sharing space with men. Even when they identify as women.

I do wonder if they see any parallels with how Black people might feel around white people. Personally, I am not worried about a man being in the toilets, I am worried that some sort of race related incident will occur while me and my loved ones are in a enclosed space without witnesses. I am worried that my stud relatives and friends who are already seen as masculine due to their Blackness will be harassed by white people while they frequent women's spaces.

I worry about how this idea that all men are an equal danger to women impacts on my Black teenage son in terms of how white women treat him in public and at work. I saw him go from Black boy to Black man and how people responded to him differently as a result. Normalising this response to men without understanding your own racial bias will increase microaggressions against Black people. White women will believe it is ok to treat Black men like dangerous predators and definitely more dangerous than men who are white. This isnt something we need more of for Black people. It kills Black men.

Honestly, in the grand scale of living as a Black mother in the UK, this trans issue is so far from my radar as things that mess up our life as a Black family in the UK. The thought that out of 100 people I might meet in a public bathroom, 1 might have been born a boy. It highlights how different at least my life is from the average white woman on Mumsnet.

With surgery, without surgery, happy, not happy, lots of makeup, no make up, pretty dresses or jeans and t shirts, in a relationship, not in one. It makes no difference- your friend is still a man and will always be a man.
As he is in a relationship with a man they are both therefore homosexual men. Possibly with internalised homophobia for one or both of them hence they are happier thinking that one of them is a woman with a “vagina”.

Hmm...OP has a shirt posting history but doesn't seem weird or like it contradicts this post.

Is there a fourth sex ?

There isn't even a third sex.

I understand your concern for your friend...but I think when people use terms like ' castrated or in my case 'homosexual', they don't necessarily mean it's wrong for your friend to transition or they deserve maltreatment (I certainly didn't).
I think at least some people instead use those terms to emphasise that biological sex is real, and does matter, in many contexts. Terms like 'homosexual' and 'castrated' are factual, and emphasise biological sex. The transition process does physically castrate. That doesn't mean it's bad - some may some have been using it as a factual descriptor.

Well said and very true; we are always aware that,
Our battles will never be the same, or taken as seriously as others

Wow. Blind to my privilege. I’m pretty far down the privilege food chain myself so save your EDI shaming.

No one is minimising the OP’s lived experience. No one. We have taken her at her word. (She hasn’t come back though has she?)

What you are experiencing on this thread is women challenging the OP’s assertion that TW (and by implication Trans ideology) is of no consequence and carries no risk to women. Wrong wrong wrong.

And you yourself, perpetrating this idea that it’s a minimal ‘one in a million’ rare thing when you are ‘not listening’ to the multiple posts, including those from women of colour, that say let one male in, you let them all in.

Again I ask. How does giving ALL men access to women’s spaces - the sex group that commit most violent and sexual crime - help the anti-racist cause? How does that help black girls and women?

It doesn’t. So stop advocating for it. Even if you feel sick to your stomach siding with what you see as white feminism, why promote an ideology that supports male privilege, and opens a loophole for the worst types - the pervs, the opportunists, the peados, the fetishists, the rapists?

@ChippingCleghorn @Screamingabdabz

The OP started this thread in bad faith, so arguing is a waste of time. Their posts across multiple threads are text book whataboutery. They are not confused. They are not curious. They know exactly what they are doing. No engagement and no listening. Just bait, then vanish.

I doubt most Black mothers are adding Trans to "The Talk" . The only people trying to equate their situation with that of Black people are the rabid subset of trans women (and their deluded supporters) who refuse to accept that women are entitled to single sex spaces rooted in biological reality. And as for the hand-wringing about “problematic white women”, a white woman who has an issue with a Black boy’s skin colour will have that issue regardless of whatever trendy intersectional wrapper you put around it.

I don’t doubt that being trans can be difficult. But that struggle is not the same as being Black. Not historically. Not socially. Not structurally. It's not even close. You don’t get to opt into Blackness or de Black if you decide its not who you are.

I'd be more concerned being alone in an enclosed space with trans women of any race than being the only BW among white women. The latter isn't even a concern unless there are other dynamics at play.

I'll be equally as concerned being alone with TW of any race as I'd be with strange men of any race.

The issue is men - whether trans or not, regardless of race or religion. I believe in biology. I'd be more afraid of a suspicious looking man because he's a man much more than because he's white. Same with a black, Asian, etc man.

Male-based violence happens far more than race-based violence.

This mindset (from the OP and some posters) that a Black person is (or should be) automatically more concerned about racism than any other -ism is just 🙄.

I think you are crazy, actually. Crazy enough to disagree with something the OP did not say. She did not say these men are not a problem...

Personally, I am not worried about a man being in the toilets, I am worried that some sort of race related incident will occur while me and my loved ones are in a enclosed space without witnesses. I am worried that my stud relatives and friends who are already seen as masculine due to their Blackness will be harassed by white people while they frequent women's spaces.

As a black woman with black sons/relatives/women who appear masculine to racists; she is more concerned about the fact that the anti-trans movement will have a detrimental impact on those she loves.
Given black boys/men are harassed for breathing, she is worried this opens another 'legitimate' avenue for harassment. Given that white women are known to be utterly terrified of black boys and men for existing in any space, and use that 'white fear' to terrorise them for being in public open spaces, she is worried this 'fear' will be 'amplified' when they happen to be together in an enclosed space. This is very likely to endanger her loved ones freedoms and safety.

You have to be supremely eager to disagree and minimise her fears to jump to her being bigoted; as these are not just imagined, but issues that play out in everyday life.
Imagine how useful it would be if you understood intersectional concerns and had a conversation with her accordingly.

As a mother of a teenage daughter, I am concerned about the trans/private space issue as I know men will use every possible reason/opportunity to violate women.
As a black woman with black male family membersvand friends (or evenbsomeone concerned withsocial justice issues), I am also acutely aware of how laws that protect my daughter can also be weaponised against the men I also love.

It really isn't difficult to see how this could be a primary issue for the OP, far beyond the trans issue itself.

As a black woman with black male family membersvand friends (or evenbsomeone concerned withsocial justice issues), I am also acutely aware of how laws that protect my daughter can also be weaponised against the men I also love.

I am struggling to think of how a law keeping men out of women's loos, dorms, changing rooms, showers, DV refuges, and sports teams be weaponised against Black men, or indeed any men.

Even if we accept the argument that Black lesbians are at risk of being misread as men[1], Black men aren't entering those spaces except as uniformed cleaners[2] with a sign up saying "male and female staff may clean these facilities". They aren't going to fall foul of those laws, any more than the Eastern European-accented white men I sometimes find cleaning the ladies are. The uniform and cleaning trolley is a big giveaway that they are meant to be there.

she is worried this 'fear' will be 'amplified' when they happen to be together in an enclosed space

Are you thinking of the incident in the lift that sparked the anti-Black rioting in Tulsa?

We don't prevent a repeat of that by saying that women can't have women-only spaces. We prevent a repeat of that by:

1. Upholding the rule of law, with particular attention to the presumption of innocence and allowing the justice system to do its job without interference.
2. Throwing the book at people who engage in criminal acts of vigilanteism, as we did to the white supremacist rioters who attacked mosques after those girls were murdered in Southport.
3. Ensuring that justice is done and seen to be done without unquestionable "sacred castes" nor scapegoats. This removes the public's motive to sympathise with vigilantes.
4. Holding our institutions to account about delivering their Public Sector Equality Duty obligations.

[1]: My thought is that, unless the onlooker is visually-impaired, this will be rare. Even the most jacked gymrat cropped-haired butch, of any race, is unmistakeably female when she moves and speaks. The slightly alarmed looks I sometimes get dissolve into sheepish relief as soon as I ask which cubicles still have paper.
[2]: Particularly at motorway services, IME. A discussion of why Blackness and being an immigrant both correlate with low paid unpleasant work is beyond the scope of this thread.