AGAIN - Nursery worker found guilty [CONTENT WARNING: Details of CSA]

[AliceAbsolum]

https://www.whitchurchherald.co.uk/news/national/25838680.nursery-worker-guilty-multiple-sexual-offences-children-care/

Seriously when are they going to ban men from nurseries? I don't care if some other innocent men have to find other jobs.

It makes me feel so sick, I can't even comprehend it.

[title edited by MNHQ to include content warning]

There was was an active scheme in Scotland to recruit male nursery workers and I always wondered/worried about the wisdom of running a campaign saying 'men come and work with these vulnerable and often non-verbal babies and children'. I don't know what the answer is because I have a daughter who generally really enjoys being taught by male teachers and school workers, going to outdoor schemes with male playworkers etc - I guess partially because her caregivers are overwhelmingly female, so there's a different dynamic.

Ultimate there is a pattern in the abuse of children and it is something we need to consider. It's not good enough to just say oh well, men are part of life.

I wonder if it's possible that safeguarding in female dominated areas just isn't fit for purpose when it comes to male practitioners. The risk isn't the same, so why are the safeguarding processes? Something I became aware of during the gender recognition reform bill was that prisons have a different risk assessment for male and female prisoners. Trans identified males going into the female estate were undergoing the female risk assessment and not the male assessment. If different assessments for either sex exist for a reason, then it's not appropriate to switch the assessments and is in fact a safeguarding breach.

Maybe we need to come at safeguarding from a new angle instead of assuming that assessments are fair and equal just because they're the same.

Aye profit ahead of welfare of children.

Although some women cause harm, being female is not a specific risk factor. Being male is.

And i just looked up stats and learned that 2/3rds of murdered children are killed by men. When you take into consideration how little childcare men do relative to women that’s a pretty shitty stat for men.

I don’t know the answer to whether men should work in nurseries. If we say yes, we are accepting that a small number of sexually assaulted babies is a price worth paying for equality, but as a society we do tend to tolerate an awful lot of sexual abuse from males, largely because we are so fearful of falsely stigmatising innocent men.

Eurgh another ugly creep. They all have that “check his hard drive look” so who the hell is employing them? The parents must be tapped too to place their kids in the care of men.
He had holes in the crutch area of his trousers 🤮 dirty filth pig needs putting down.

I also wondered about this. He went into work with a hole in the crotch area of his trousers. I wonder how that was dealt with at the time.

Death preferably. Second choice what be full castration, leave them with absolutely nothing.

This comment made me sad. I was a sp when my d sons were small. My eldest had a male p4 teacher, only one in his school. He was truly an amazing teacher. 20 odd yrs on my ds still remembers him fondly.
I think no to men in nurseries but primary and high school, we need them, we need positive male role models for our kids. It cannot and should not just be all females, surely!

I wonder if they defend nonces like this IRL. There seems to be it all.

Stepfathers are .more likely
Your husband is more likely
Family member is more likely.
Deflect,deflect,deflect.

Very strange comments really.

@GreenIsTheColourOfMyHoliday are you a man. Just wondering . You seem to not grasp that men working in nurserys are a real problem

Should be ripped apart by dogs.

Will probably be let off with a warning and a cup of tea.

First off, this study (2010 and 2018) shows that men are more likely to murder their children than women:

"Generally speaking, a child is more at risk of filicide by their mother in their first year of life .. and usually that's because of severe mental illness … really severe depressive or psychotic symptoms," she said.
"As they get older it's their father that's more likely to kill them and usually our research is showing us that it is retaliatory or aggressive in nature."

Or perhaps in roughly equal rates (2000 - 2012):

"In cases where children are killed intentionally, women are more likely to kill babies and newborns, particularly in circumstances of unwanted pregnancies. [...]
Mothers are also more likely to kill their children during a psychotic episode.
Fathers who kill their children, meanwhile, are more likely to have a history of domestic and family violence. They are more likely to kill out of revenge towards a partner or former partner in the context of family separation."

Secondly, sexual offenders are more likely to work with children, and the only comprehensive study on the issue shows that despite making up under 5% of nursery workers men committed 60% of all sexual and non-sexual abuse:

Recent data show that one in 20 men in the Australian community are motivated offenders (individuals who reported both sexual interest in and offending against children). However, they are almost three times more likely to work with children compared to other men.
This study examined cases from 1983 to 1985, and identified 270 daycare centres where 1,639 children were found to have experienced substantiated sexual abuse. Although men made up only about 5% of childcare staff, they were responsible for 60% of the offences. The abuse was often severe, with 93% of victims subjected to some form of penetrative sexual violence.

Thirdly, in the modern day, paedophiles are deliberately exploiting nurseries' desire to have men employed, and using them as hunting grounds, where they have the perfect access to non-verbal victims:

"Inside these encrypted forums, predators swap tactics and advice. One of the most chilling questions posted is, "Where do I find a child?"
The answers are laid out in detailed paedophile handbooks — guides that cover everything from online security and grooming techniques to how to pass a job interview and build trust once inside a centre."
[...]
Most of the material is too explicit to show, but the discussions reveal how organised and deviant they really are.
One of these guides instructs predators applying for work at childcare centres on how to answer job interview questions about why they want to work with children.
[...]
"When I began working in this field 25 years ago, child sex offenders were the lone wolves out there … and now with the internet, they're hunting in packs and they are strategic, they are vicious, and they are supporting each other as they hunt.
"There is an entire network that is facilitating more and more egregious acts of harm against children. And … it's increasing at an almost exponential rate."
Dr Bourke's warning is stark: "They're better organised than we are. They're more strategic and, if they go to the right place where supervision is missing and policies aren't enforced, they're capable of having many, many victims."

Now, you can say that nurseries and childcare centres should just have better safeguarding, and they should, as women can neglect or abuse children too – but in practice, that's not going to happen, or it's not going to happen perfectly. And we should reduce all risks in the most effective way possible, and even with great safeguarding, the biggest risk is men.

Allowing men to work in ECE sharply elevates the actual rates of children being sexually abused.

If you are in favour of men working in nurseries, you are, in fact, in favour of children being sexually abused as you endorse policies that lead to more children being sexually abused.

I know that will upset some people, but it's reality. Again: If you are in favour of male nursery workers, you are enabling the sexual abuse of children.

And yet there's another thread suggesting all child abusers are Muslim. Funny how the major news stories suggest otherwise.

This is awful, bloody heartbreaking.

This is a grossly insulting question

And the men campaigning for it could of been secret peados

@HotChocCreamAndMarshmallows - why is it grossly insulting?

with the attitude on here, it's not going to change anytime soon.

Women are their worst enemies!

No men are the problem

Because the way you’ve asked this question infers that ANY man interested in working with children is only doing so for sinister reasons.

Not withstanding that a) there are some monsters out there and b) yes there is an increased risk from
men for some crimes…believe it or not, there ARE some genuine, lovely male early years practitioners

why implying that men who chose to be nurses, nursery workers, nannies or any job involving young children , why implying that they can only be paedo is insulting?

Why do you think?

How will those parents ever move on from this? Sending your child to a place that they should be safe, and that happening to them.

Horrific. Those poor, poor children.

That vile creature should never see the light of day again.

Because they are exactly the kind of jobs peados seek out

The thing that annoys me second about these threads (the first being the perpetrators obviously) is the number of mumsnetters who will wang on about statistics and risk, without actually understanding either.

So remove all men from nursery, I've got no skin in the game and don't care about the menz. But what are you going to do when the next child is harmed?

When the oil industry had a particularly awful year for deaths, the likes of Shell, BP and ExxonMobil went all out to prevent not just deaths but injuries. I was a frequent visitor to various offices, and you could not enter without watching a safety video every time, you had to sit down to drink a coffee (no carrying it further than to the nearest table, not even to your desk, and you must always use a lid), you could NOT walk up a step without holding onto the handrail and every single employee carried traffic light cards on their lanyard and they were forced empowered to give a yellow or red card to ANYBODY at all, no matter what the status. I never visited the more risky sites or rigs, but I can only imagine. And for all that it felt ridiculous getting a red card for not having put the fiddly lid on my coffee cup properly, damn it worked. Accident stats went almost non-existent.

What I'm trying to say is that the same things SHOULD be possible to make abuse in childcare a never incident. Massive, end your business or career penalties for procedures not being up to scratch and staff not following them properly. Government funded support and training. An industry wide review of the actual statistics and every reported incident, and development of procedures that are both workable in real settings AND that prevent people from being able to cover up child abuse.

Why do people say, 'oh, women are still a risk, so let's not eliminate the biggest, most overwhelming risk (men), lest we become complacent'?

That's like saying that having seatbelts doesn't eliminate risk, only making the speed limit 15mph would eliminate it, so therefore we shouldn't have seatbelts – it might create a false sense of safety.

No. First, eliminate the biggest, easiest risk to get rid of: men. Now fewer children will be sexually abused. Yay! Second, work on better safeguarding overall, to reduce the remaining risk to as close to zero as possible.

This is simple.

Also, why is it that people understand and are okay with men not being allowed to be mammographers for adult women, to protect their dignity, but aren't okay with men not being allowed to be nursery workers to protect babies and small children from being raped?

Why do so many people want to enable child rape in order to protect a small number of men's feelings?

Nurseries pay low wages and are grateful to have anyone applying for a job, often they will start with the DBS checks coming back as they take so long. It is a dream job for someone with an ulterior motive, as the children are so young and often cannot verbalise their experiences, so even if they are caught, a prosecution is rare as it relies on evidence a very young child just cannot give. Some employers would rather just 'let them go' than involve the police to protect their business.