Are men going to now wholeheartedly welcome trans women into their spaces? Utterly brilliant if so ...

[loveyouradvice]

Embracing the full breadth of what it means to be a man

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Well I added a great image - I hope it pops up soon - its being reviewed by Mumsnet

Fabulous image! (Though I’d have the pink figure in striped pink and blue as in the trans flag.)

I like that graphic. I think it should be in all male spaces.

I keep wondering if I am missing something significant though because I was not aware that there was a national or even regional issue that meant a group of male people who choose to present in a non-stereotypical way are unsafe in male spaces. I have asked where the campaigns are to address this significant issue so I can support them.

If this graphic genuinely turned into a campaign, I will be a supporter!

MtF trans people are legitimately afraid of arsehole men in toilets in the same way that women are. Campaigns like this are about as likely to reassure trans folk as women are reassured that MtF trans people are safe in women's spaces. ie not at fucking all.

No one wins.

Problem with such a campaign is the lack of evidence that it is needed at all….

I recall a few years ago there was a TW who spent a year using public male toilets to see how many times she was threatened. Reader - it was none. Apparently the gents is a safe space for all males.

Which is why we need third spaces.

Still, it's not women's problems to sort the problem of (male) transwomen. That's the male's problem to sort.

Time for the focus from trans women to shift to what men can do to make their experience better. I'm fully open to trans men's suggestions of anything that would make women's toilets/changing rooms better for them.

Campaign for a third space then. Everyone should feel safe. Incidentally no one seems to have any stats or evidence of all these attacks on trans women by other males in toilets, on the basis of them being trans.

That’s why groups should have been campaigning for third spaces instead they were using women as a tool to validate mens feelings.

Man here. Don't care if a TW is in the gents. Don't really care if a real woman is, although it feels a bit odd if it's urinals...

I genuinely believe this is the way forward to suffocate the movement.

We desperately need more men speaking out and preaching inclusiveness.

For a long time men thought it was "cool" to be a trans ally. Now we need to show them that the people they need to get behind are women.

This is a fantastic angle to use and I'll be very interested to see whether this evolves into TRAs clashing with TERMs (exclusionary radical males) because I'm guessing they'll find that experience a whole lot less DEMURE than what they've been used to

Well as a man can you get your menfolk to make a bit more noise supporting women please?

Afraid of what? Being raped and other sex offences? Being attacked physically?

The question remains though, what are the risks to this group of male people compared the risks of other groups of vulnerable male people? There are many other groups of vulnerable male people all still using the male toilets.

What is the difference between this group of vulnerable male people and other groups of vulnerable male people?

And if you mention that they are 'weaker' than other male people, this is not true. I am very happy to provide you with the studies.

So, what is the difference with other vulnerable male people that means this group, one with a specific philosophical belief about their identity as being the only difference between them and other male people in the UK, should get such special treatment above all other vulnerable male people?

If any men dressed as women had been beaten up, assaulted, raped by men in men's toilets, we would never have heard the end of it! Their iconic sadfaces would have been hoist aloft on placards. They would be heroes.

Where are they, then? Oh, wait . . .

Biological women are legitimately afraid of arsehole men in our toilets too but you don't give a shit about that??

Needing a welcome mat to use the male loos is such a cliche and proof that transwomen are men.

I really hope it's made loud and clear by men that transwomen are welcome in their spaces. The trans community stoke fear which is quite irresponsible when you think about it.

They need to pick up this campaign and run with it while the topic is currently in the media. Otherwise, it will fizzle out.

They definitely can't keep using female only facilities so they do need to stop trying to fight against the court ruling and start making space for themselves alongside other men or campaign for separate provision entirely.

It shouldn't be that hard. Look how easily they got the government and all public bodies, NHS, schools, etc. to allow males into female spaces. They can do it if they want to. What remains to be seen is whether they do want to be safe in single sex spaces, or whether the real aim is to continue to intimidate women.

Way to misread, kneejerker. I'm fully supportive.

I'm fully GC. A lot of men have been scared to speak up. Cowardly, given what the trans movement has done to the right of women, but people are scared to lose their jobs

“Wholeheartedly welcome” is over the top. It’s people using the bogs they should be using as far as I’m concerned so I won’t be making a song and dance. Just in and out as quickly as possible for me.

I'm not sure why you would expect men to welcome transwomen into their spaces. Women don't welcome them in because they are different and a threat. Men may or may not feel threatened, but still see them as different. I doubt very much transwomen are going to be "welcomed" into a men's toilet for instance - though frankly it would be bizarre and uncomfortable for anyone to "welcome" someone into a toilet anyway.

The thing is, most men will probably tolerate transwomen in their spaces. The ones that won't tolerate them won't be persuaded by a (frankly twatty) little sign. More than that, those particular men won't tolerate a transwoman outside of a "male space" either.

I don't think there is a concept of a "male space" in the same sense there is of a female one though. A female place to a woman is a place of safety from men. That's why female spaces exist, because women need a place where men are excluded. Most men don't really care about women being in their spaces - but a transwoman is not a woman.

Agreed men's toilets are not safe for.. well, literally anyone. I bet every single man in this country has a story/stories about not feeling safe in a public loo. I remember my younger brother being sent into a men's toilets when he was 10 and he came running back out with a look of shock on his face. Things like this should not be happening to ANYONE.

I would hope then that we will see a huge campaign that will make the toilets safe for all male people.

Transmen and transwomen are fine in bloke's loos. As are biological women. I've seen desperate biological women use bloke's toilets in busy clubs and pubs.

We really don't GAF.