Are men going to now wholeheartedly welcome trans women into their spaces? Utterly brilliant if so ...

[loveyouradvice]

Embracing the full breadth of what it means to be a man

I think the focus on toilets is unhelpful, and trivialises the much bigger problem of trans women in multiple other single sex spaces where women are arguably far more vulnerable - hospital wards, prisons, refuges etc.

On a slight tangent, can I ask whether transvestites still exist, or is everyone now under the trans umbrella? By transvestite, I suppose I mean drag queens or people who like dressing as 'feminine' women but don't actually believe they are or say they are or want to be a woman. I used to work with what I'd call a transvestite many years ago. Always knew when he'd used the ladies because he left the seat up. But what has happened to the word, because I almost never hear it now? I was asking my teenage niece about this recently (she has trans and non binary friends) and she didn't know/ couldn't explain. I wasn't sure if it's not longer 'politically correct'.

They still exist but the shouty ones who very much like their penises thanks call them truscum.

No it is not. I just watched a tik tok video where a trans woman was saying he didn't feel safe in a man's toilet. Well now you know how we feel mate but you didn't give a monkeys about our feelings.

What about the 8 year old girls or 12 year old girls who don't want to be seen getting changed by an 8 year old boy? Where are they meant to go if they don't want that but the 8 year old boy's mum thinks his rights trump theirs?

Girls as well as women use women's spaces and deserve their privacy. I know it's not meant to, but this kind of thinking is prioritising boys over girls and teaching both that boys matter more .

In such a case the 8 lad would have to wait until they were out. Maybe there would be times where it simply wasn't possible.

But on the whole, I'd hope, in reality there's a bit of common sense despite the very sensible rule.

I don’t think men give a shit either way who uses their toilets.

I was going to say this. I actually have one girl, one boy - so I understand parents not wanting to send their son into a male changing room alone. But my 8yo dd is very private and would be extremely embarrassed and uncomfortable with a similarly aged boy in her changing room.

I know this is meant to be mockery but it would be good if those men who genuinely meant it worked on making their spaces safe for trans women.

It’s an incredibly brave trans woman who would use a men’s toilet / changing room. I think the chances of her being harmed would be slim to none.

Common sense is abiding by the ruling. Making exceptions for boys because they can't be trusted not to mess around/put their own socks on isn't girls problem to solve, and letting boys use their spaces teaches both sexes that boys matter more. What about grown men with LDs, are they allowed in too? Making exceptions and being told #bekind/it's only a tiny number/ it doesn't really affect anyone is part of how we got here.

What if the boy waits til there are no girls there then one wants to come in before he's finished? She has to wait for her own space until someone who isn't eligible for it has finished in there? That's what some schools have done btw, make the girls wait til the transIDing boy has finished getting changed in the girls changing room before they can use it. It's not ok.

My DS has ADHD and cannot in any way be trusted to dry himself, put on his own clothes not someone else's, and not leave anything behind. That, however, is a him problem and it's not for his female peers to have to give way to.

Also what age do people then think is acceptable for a boy to be by himself in the changing room? Our gym only has male / female changing so kids have to enter with their parent. Their are frequently boys in the women’s gym (then tend to be very by appearance though - 5 and under) but I cannot imagine feeling comfortable letting my 8 year old son by himself in the men’s changing (and it’s mainly women with their children in the gym.).

I disagree. I think there are a lot of men who are incredibly violent towards trans women for existing.

See the pic above of Fionne Orlander, safe in a men's toilet. Fionne has written about using men's facilities, and said the most that ever happens is a man will see Fionne and either apologise or double check the sign on the door. Fionne will say 'yeah it's the men's I'm a guy' then everyone goes about their business.

And yet again, what about the small, weak, old, ill, disabled men, are they all so stunning and brave for using the men's toilets too?

I went to the sports centre this morning, the sign on the changing rooms says under 8.

It cuts both ways. I know for a fact that men wouldn't object to 8yo girls in men's changing rooms. I kind of assumed it's the same with women. I guess not.

So if mumsnetters are right, it's definitely women getting the priority here. Men apply common sense in these situations, women don't. Mind you, I'm not sure mumsnetters are getting this right. I've never, ever heard a woman say she couldn't go swimming with her 8yo son so I'd seriously question if it really is enforced in reality. Or maybe dedicated swimming changing rooms no longer exist in the UK.

There is no evidence that one single transwomen has ever been assaulted in a men's single sex facility. There are quite a few of transwomen assaulting women and girls in women's single sex facilities.

Where is this incredible violence against transwomen for existing? Are they getting murdered by men at the rate of one every 5 days? Are men going around yelling at them if they try to hold meetings? Are men waving signs wishing them death? Oh wait no that's just happening to women.

I suspect the difference is that TW feel confident holding their own against women who (they perceive) give them funny looks, are hostile, or perhaps aggressive. If the worst came to it, they know they'd win in a fight against a woman. Not so in the men's.

If you're so convinced you're a woman, be more woman. Head down, make yourself small, be quiet, pee, leave. If any man gives you grief, make your escape where there's other people. That's what women have to do.

Do you seriously think the difference is that men have common sense and women don't?? Women and men have different needs. It's not women having priority. You thinking your son takes priority over the people the space is for, is you giving males priority, and you can't even see it.

No one said you can't take your son swimming, he just can't get changed in the changing room that isn't for him. I've literally just said what happens when my DS gets changed without me in the male changing room, he cocks it up. That is his problem to solve, no women or girls have to make way for him because they don't exist to facilitate his life or his ND.

So why aren't we tackling that then? Why all the focus on shaming women for wanting boundaries?

I've literally just said what happens when my DS gets changed without me in the male changing room, he cocks it up. That is his problem to solve, no women or girls have to make way for him because they don't exist to facilitate his life or his ND.

Yes.

Whereas (assuming primary school age) blokes, if it seemed sensible, would tend to turn a blind eye if your son was a girl.

If you're right (I don't think you are) then men are being accommodating and reasonable towards girls, and women are not towards boys. That's not boys having priority. That's girls having priority.

I'm not convinced you are right. There aren't any women in this thread saying that, in reality, they didn't turn a blind eye when it seemed sensible to do so. Just hypothetical bluster.

Yeah that's what's going on, men are being accommodating and reasonable, and women aren't.

Can I ask where this ends for you on the ND point?

My stepson’s mum takes him swimming. He’s 8, around the size of a 13 year old, and cognitively around 2/3. She’s a single mum - should he not go swimming with her?

I appreciate it may be different because he’s not looking at anyone and frankly, is visibly disabled, but if the only option for her is the women’s with him - what then?

Ah, you watched a tik tok, sorry didn't realise you were an expert in this subject. Did the trans woman actually say they didn't care about women's feelings? Oh dear, well I guess you're vindicated then!

Well done Jack Pownall. What a great idea. I used to work near a well-known 'cottage ' in Hackney , a very working class area back then. You'd occasionally see guys in make up and feminine attire going into the Gents. No reason that shouldn't be normalised. I think this whole idea of working class blokes being bigots is over done anyway?

I think this whole idea of working class blokes being bigots is over done anyway?

Exactly. This is not my experience

Is there evidence of this?

Why isn’t there a national campaign that raises the awareness of the physical violence men are exhibiting anywhere toward other men who have a trangender identity? Because we have a huge bank of violence displayed and perpetrated by those male people with trangender identities, who are always described as vulnerable, against women.

They even post videos of themselves in female spaces gleefully boasting what they will do to any female person who complains. Boasting about their transgression of boundaries? I have personally been abused by male people with transgender identities. But so many posters tell us that we don’t know what we are talking about.

And we are told to ignore those male people. They are so vulnerable we are told.

And, we have been still constantly told and shamed about pointing this out. While being told we much accept these male people into our single sex spaces.

Perhaps the issue is that this is very much part of a broad male violence issue. But I am finding the double standards to be hard to ignore.