Are men going to now wholeheartedly welcome trans women into their spaces? Utterly brilliant if so ...

[loveyouradvice]

Embracing the full breadth of what it means to be a man

I believe that transgender people will use a neutral facility. A number of businesses already have these and most will follow. In many places this is a the disabled toilet with a new sign.

I'd prefer a huge campaign to make all toilets unisex (hear me out). I mean the type that are individual cubicles with a mini sink, and no communal area for people to loiter. The communal areas in toilets are the problem, that's where people hang around, sell drugs, bully, harass, etc. Individual loos are much safer, and I agree that men, women, and trans, all deserve to be safe.

I used to think this, but my experience with these is wee everywhere and seats left up. Adf to this the smell of urine and you get a toilet that only those who stand to wee will use.

I don't GAF either, blokes often used to come in the ladies, back when our loos were literally the only place with a baby changing table. I dont mind if someone is trans either, It's fine.

However we all know that there are places where you would not go into a mens public loo unless you had your wits about you. And certainly not if you're a teenage boy, or a trans woman. Places like that should simply not exist, but for some men what choice do they have? It's not good enough.

I think the issue about TW in women's loos was all a bit of a fantasy fight. Well fantasy in the sense that it was an agenda rather than a need, and we (women) better put up with or else. Same for all the other incursions into female spaces.

The fight will fizzle out now I'd say, since the law is no longer supports TW who insist on using female spaces. Of course there will occasionally be the radical TRAs who will fight and fight, but the majority of people will accept that TW incursions into female spaces is not a fight they will win anymore.

The law has spoken, people, and women in particular are now unafraid to challenge TW incursions. Jobs will not be lost together with any other ramifications anymore. I think those who continue to fight for the right to use women's spaces will not be respected for such acts. The law is the law now.

And that's the issue I have. We also need to balance the rights of disabled people. For many of whom, a key reason they need a disabled loo is because they need queuing time kept to a minimum.
I have seen the use of the disabled loo as a solution but it feels as "off " to erode the rights of disabled people as it was to erode the rights of women

I will not join you in that.

There are a few reasons.

Firstly, there is good reason for gaps under toilet doors. They have in the past been useful for saving lives for those who have collapsed on the toilet floor. I think there is a Chesterton's fence situation in removing gaps.

Secondly, female toilet usage will at times require the use of the public space around the basin and hand drier. Sure this can be done in a cubicle, but drying out spills and stains will mean that a cubicle is out of use for quite some time.

Thirdly, unisex toilets and changing rooms are reported to be more dangerous. There have been posters who have come to MN tell us how they were pushed into a unisex toilet by a male and attacked. Because people's awareness of what is happening in the cubicle is very low and if there is a gap where a female person and a male person are the only two people in that space in front of a toilet, who is going to be aware that a male person has pushed a female person in and locked the door.

Fourthly, we know from the reports from female school students that they will dehydrate themselves so they do not have to use unisex toilets. And I can certainly understand. They are uncomfortable using a toilet where taking out and unwrapping sanitary products or just toilet sounds can be heard by someone from the opposite sex. And we have seen male people with transgender identities mocking women in general about their toilet sounds. It is great amusement to them to hear women going to the toilet. I have experienced mocking about toilet noises before myself from male people.

But the great thing for you is that there should be a range of toilet provisions where possible. So you will have a choice. And I will stick to the female single sex spaces where they are available.

I can imagine there will be some pretty rough areas where trans women will not be welcome at all and risk being beaten up.
Maybe they will be able to understand what we've been going through.

There may have been an element of that with some of the political campaign, about undermining or usurping women (especially in sports or employment).

But frankly, I don't find it hard to agree that trans women really can be at risk in men's toilets. I feel bad for them because no one in this country should be unsafe going to the toilet.

That's a ridiculous and heartless thing to say.

and that @Tessiebear2023 is why Im keen to get men talking about it, so it becomes normalised..... I've always through that the breadth of what being a man looks like needed expanding, not that of being a woman!!

I do agree with this. Re: men's toilets being grim in general, I remember my dad going into the loo at a grotty service station once in about 2005, then immediately coming back out looking horrified and said we had to get back in the car. Transpired it was because there were some blokes shagging in there. Unpleasant, but also, the look on his face was as if he thought they were going to try and rope him in, which I'm quite sure they weren't!

Wow, you OK hun? I meant it as in a wider you than just you. Jerker

% of men who have had gender reassignment surgery is very very tiny...
so for most people, all that will be seen is a man wearing a frock and pearls (why is it always that uniform that says they are 'women'?!) and while they might get strange looks, no bloke is really going to care...

as for safety - there is no reason to think that they will be any less safe than many other groups of men in those spaces, there are always going to be spaces that are far from ideal, and there will always be the bullied and tormented in any group - none of that is acceptable or ideal, but nor is it a reason to be demanding 3rd spaces / unisex loos - weak man who is bullied / the disfigured / the disabled / those who are of different colours / etc. all have had instances of being bullied...

for none of them, nor for transwomen now is the answer to just separate them off into a third / fourth / fifth / etc. category - the answer is to deal with the bullying... so - absolutely, work to make loos / changing rooms safer spaces for all - but there is no need to treat transwomen any differently to any other minority group. Let's not forget that the SC ruling showed that they still hold all the protections they need...

men in men's spaces - women in women's space

I think, for once, everyone on this thread is in agreement.

Any problem with males using the men's toilets is caused by men.

Not women.

So the answer is not to allow males into women's toilets and thereby causing the same problems to women.

I think the main problem they face is that the men’s loos are going to be disgusting.

I suppose if they have retained the ability to urinate standing up then that will be helpful.

Sorry, in my experience the communal area in school toilets is a FAR bigger reason for girls not using the loos. If the school has a bullying problem, thats exactly where you'll find them. They are a hot bed for bullying, and the mocking you've just been talking about. Single cubicles where no one can hang around outside without being seen by staff is a much better system.

Women being pushed into a cubicle to be attacked can happen in either space, sadly. But a communal area is an ideal place for an attacker or drug addict to loiter without being noticed until it's too late.

I think there could be ways of making single cubicles safer, such as alarm buttons/cords and motion sensors, but it's not a reason to completely disregard them.

Why would men object to transwomen using their loos? Men aren't going to feel threatened by them. Or am I missing the whole point of this thread?

And unisex toilets in schools are currently being used for sexual encounters.

You can campaign all you want for unisex toilets, but I and millions of other women will not join you. We know this because the government held a consultation and were overwhelmed with women telling them that they did not want to lose their single sex toilets.

Plus polling in the UK and other countries show women want both. Because they don't want to be stuck only with unisex toilets.

It is ridiculous to dismiss the need for gaps by saying 'alarm buttons and cords and motion sensors'. We already have a tried and tested solution.

As I said, places can have both.

They don’t. Yet to see any evidence of trans women being attacked in male toilets for being gender non conforming. Any male I’ve asked in my life said they wouldn’t give a fuck.

In many places they are already shared as baby changing facilities. I suppose most businesses don't have the space to provide numerous toilets.

That's what I thought. So what's the point of this thread?

Maybe this thread will be of interest.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5319667-gender-neutral-loos

Because that’s the argument as to why trans women (males) HAVE to use women’s spaces, by trans activists, because they are unsafe in male toilets/spaces, despite no evidence to the contrary.

Isn't that just confirming that the communal area around cubicles is the unsafe part of public toilets? Which is what I was saying