Are men going to now wholeheartedly welcome trans women into their spaces? Utterly brilliant if so ...

[loveyouradvice]

Embracing the full breadth of what it means to be a man

My point is that unisex toilets are demonstrably safe,

Pp keep pointing out why they are not safe.

Didn’t you post this:

“I'd prefer a huge campaign to make all toilets unisex (hear me out).”

This is removing female single sex toilets.

No one has said children who need care and protection should be excluded from female single sex spaces. And no one has expressed hate towards people with transgender identities on this thread.

So I take it that you have no evidence that making all toilets unisex will improve safety? And that removing the communal space in female toilets is needed?

Perhaps a discussion should be had about converting all male toilets into unisex toilets, leaving the female single sex toilets as is and expecting male people to be respectful of laws and behave with respect.

Considering there are already male people with transgender identities using male toilets without issue, I don’t quite understand why people are stating it is a major issue that needs access to female toilets to solve it.

Either the male people with transgender identities who are using male toilets are lying. Or it is an issue in some areas that need resolving. Or there is dishonesty at play.

I think it will vary a bit on location.. trendy bar in Brighton, unlikely to be a problem.. working man's club in a yorkshire coal mining village.. probably more likely to face abuse. And these men can choose where to live.

This thread is only about toilets, and I'm speaking specifically about public toilets. I would not be in favour of removing all female only spaces in the wider context beyond what this thread is about. But I do believe that public toilets are not safe, especially when they have a communal area where people can loiter.

As for the hate, there have been many comments expressing glee that trans women will now have to run the gauntlet of going into unsafe male toilets. There was even one poster thinking it was good that they might get assaulted so that "now they'll know what it's like". Whether it's a man, woman or trans woman, I don't think anyone should be at risk of getting assaulted using a public loo. I belive we'd all be safer in individual unisex loos.

Ok.

You do want to remove female single sex toilets. Based on your personal opinion which seems to be based on some male public toilets. Glad to be clear.

Now if you think someone’s posted hate, report it.

Nope, said before that female toilets are also unsafe. I don't like walking into any unfamilar public toilet with a communal area where people can loiter. But, yes, male loos are particularly unsafe, we all know this, and it's unacceptable that anyone should be forced to use facilities like this, however they identify.

Nowhere did I say that it wasn’t a problem to be solved by men. You may be sick of hearing about loos, but it’s an issue of big volume, if not necessarily an issue of big consequence, so it naturally will have a lot of traction.

I’m fine with the single sex toilet in my gym for example to have cubicles and a public area. No one is loitering.

In restaurants I go to if there’s enough space ditto. In a park it’s fine.

Here's transwoman Fionne Orlander perfectly safe in a men's toilet:

https://www.change.org/p/boris-johnson-a-plea-for-third-spaces-for-transgender-men-and-women

I would really love to hear Stonewall or Genspect or any of the other organisations who've gained money and power trying to force women to budge over, explain why they didn't support Fionne and Miranda Yardley in their campaign for third spaces for transpeople, in 2019. Think of all the safe spaces for transpeople we could have had by now.

I think it's more about men not making a marginalised group (TW) feel threatened in their loo. There is a type of toxic wanker that will threaten and assault anyone who's different and/or more vulnerable. Those guys are the issue and the common enemy. How many gays got beaten up and worse over the decades? It happens to TW too of course.

It that also applies to camp men, small men, elderly men, disabled men, learning disabled men. No one ever suggested they should be in the women's to get away from toxic wankers.

Also, given some of the naked aggression displayed by some transwomen in the last week, you could argue that they are the toxic wankers, rather than the marginalised and vulnerable we hear so much about.

Edited to add link, other examples are readily available: https://x.com/WesleyWinterYT/status/1914766265605882258

Exactly that. My 20 year skinny son hates using public male toilets. Will avoid if possible and wait until he gets home. But no way would he consider using the women’s because of whatsaboutery. It’s his problem to deal with and although I’m sympathetic as his mum, it’s a male issue. In all honestly it isn’t about the supposed risk of violence it’s the smell and piss everywhere that he dislikes.

There should be a third space.. A bit of topic but I had a debate on here last year because I’d refused to follow the rule of sending my 8 year old son into a man’s changing room alone to get changed after swimming.
I fully understand that women are fully within their rights to not want biological men in their spaces.. But trans women feel how they feel and they (along with children) should have a space where they aren’t afraid either. The argument of They’ll probably be fine Isn’t fair. They probably won’t be raped in a mens toilet cubicle, but surely people can see they are at a higher risk than a man who hasn’t transitioned.
Again just to be clear, I don’t think trans women should be using women’s spaces, a third space makes more sense.

Toxic masculinity is absolutely the enemy, wherever it comes from. That needs eradicating.
I suspect unisex cubicles will become much more prevalent now. Third spaces (or even 4th if you count places that have a disabled loo) simply won't be affordable for a lot of places. I think it will have the unintended consequence that we may have less female loos in the long run. Just being a realist, because ultimately TW and TM are a very vocal but very small percentage of the population.

This is the logical sticky point that some people really haven't thought about.

It is why we ask, what other vulnerable people should be given access to female toilets. And it is why we keep saying that if there is such a wide spread issue with vulnerable male people being harmed in male toilets, then this needs urgent attention. NOT for one group of vulnerable male people to be given access to female single sex spaces.

And if there is such danger in female single sex spaces being caused by other female people, that needs to be addressed to.

But so far, all we see across media, social media etc, is an outpouring of emotionally manipulative, thought terminating statements that don't seem to even be able to supported through logic.

Access to female single sex spaces was based on safeguarding principles. Campaigning by trans support groups removed those safeguarding principles to wedge in people who should never have been there. They did it through deception about what the law stated and through emotional manipulation.

If so many vulnerable male people are in need of male toilet safety to be improved, well, fuck. That should be a major campaign. And that should have been where those support groups were focusing.

surely people can see they are at a higher risk than a man who hasn’t transitioned.

Do we have any actual evidence to suggest that though? Where is it coming from?

Don't get me wrong, I'm in favour of third spaces if needed, i just dont really understand why we've concluded that men are going to rape transwomen.

I don’t think it’s that men are going to rape trans women, just like I don’t think all men are going to rape me. I still wouldn’t want to be left in a changing room alone with one though. I just think if trans women have the same fear towards men as women do that fear should be acknowledged and a third space offered.

But why just single out Transwomen and not address other groups of vulnerable males?

I did it my first post.. For example I think it’s absolutely absurd that people expect little boys aged 8 and over if swimming with there mum to go into a male changing room or urinal block alone. It’s an argument I’ve had a few times when taking my son swimming and it’s a hill I am willing to die on. It shouldn’t be an argument at all in my opinion, there should be a third option for my example and for anyone else who needs to use it.

I asked DH about this. He said, he’s never felt threatened in public toilets, although he has in pubs and football grounds!

He and his friends went to a football match, and were told by the police to go in the opposing fans area! He was also in Hillsborough, not long before the tragedy - he said he could see how the tragedy happened.

I think it’s absolutely absurd that people expect little boys aged 8 and over if swimming with there mum to go into a male changing room

Is that ever enforced? My son could never be trusted to change alone and, regardless of rules, I can't imagine anyone complaining if he went in the Lady's changing room. (And he's the size of an 11yo.)

I asked DH about this. He said, he’s never felt threatened in public toilets, although he has in pubs and football grounds!

Ditto. I've never seen a problem or had a problem in a lifetime of using male bogs.

We have enough single changing cubicles at the swimming pools. Big enough for a dc and parent.

Plus single sex changing rooms.

Ours are unisex so the problem doesn't arise, but I'm still suprised that are places where an 8yo with a woman would actually be refused entry to the ladies changing room even though the rules required it. Many 8yo boys are not reliable changers and still look like very young children.

The rule is fine but I'd hope/expect there's a large amount of understanding in the enforcement.