Are men going to now wholeheartedly welcome trans women into their spaces? Utterly brilliant if so ...

[loveyouradvice]

Embracing the full breadth of what it means to be a man

Surely it's dead easy for someone with a penis to use urinals with a skirt or dress on?

'Transitioning' doesn't make a man anything different to a man.

There may be body modification, a disruption of natural hormone balance, but that is all.

'Trainsitioning' doesn't affect chromosomes, the gametes the body is set up to produce, the skeleton, the musculature system, the effects of androgenising testosterone in puberty. These are genuine indicators of sex.

And the vast, vast majority of transwoman do not pass, if we're being honest (due to the factors above).

If people pretend they do, that's because they're scared of their reaction or they've been brainwashed into 'being kind' at the expense of the evidence of their own senses.

Also worth noting that the vast majority of 'transwomen' take no medical steps to 'transition' anyway

People don’t respond socially to them “as women” though. They’re courteous because most people aren’t just assholes for no reason. I’ve never seen a man hold a door open for a trans women, or any other action that would indicate they perceive them as women. I have seen plenty of women interact with trans women, and it’s always obvious that they’re being polite and no more.

Oh dear.

Now that those male people you refer to know that by law they are not allowed to use a female single sex space, do you understand that them simply entering that space is a very clear sign that they wish to violate the privacy and dignity of female people?

This was always the case though. We know those male people with transgender identities stayed out of female single sex spaces out of respect before the SC judgement. Their friends told us and they told us. They used male toilets with no incidents because they told us this themselves. One even takes a selfie in the male toilet and posts it to reassure other male people with transgender identities that it is safe.

Yet you don’t seem to understand that any male person entering the female single sex spaces is choosing to transgress the boundaries of all female people using that space. You cannot acknowledge this fundamental boundary breach. Whether they intended to or not, that is what they have done. Deliberately, because they chose to enter the female space.

Plus, I suspect you underestimate just how many of them enter the space knowing they are could cause a female person distress and do it anyway. And underestimate how many feel at least pleased that their presence will cause that effect. Indeed, in the past they would have felt righteous about it because obviously that distressed female person was a fucking bigot if they were distressed at a male person’s presence. Do you see how this works?

”I think you should stop projecting such negative motivations about trans women”

Please tell us again, in light of the SC judgement and them knowing that in the UK that they are breaking the law as well as knowingly potentially causing harm to female people in entering the female single sex spaces, why their motivations should not be considered negative?

I think you should stop projecting such negative motivations about trans women; they're human beings trying to live their lives, many have back stories that include familial rejection and social stigma.

I think you should have a look at some of the people you are earnestly trying to tell us to #bekind to while they extend no kindness or compassion or even any sign that they see women as anything other than service animals to prop up their identity:

https://terfisaslur.com/

You have just confirmed to us that you don’t understand how it harms female people to have male people enter female single sex spaces.

Do you only believe that harm can be measured through reported incidents- meaning attack or serious crime? That is remarkable.

A male person entering a space where female people expect only other female people harms those female people in many ways. By simply being there. Surely you understand this?

Not only is there harm to religious women and girls, there is also the harm of causing fear because it is very unlikely that the female people also using the space don’t correctly identify the sex of that male person.

The harm to them may never even be discussed but they may have had to deal with their distress. They may report that person’s presence and have been ignored. They may may have had negative reaction to reporting that person.

You seem woefully ill informed on this topic if you are only considering reported publicly available incidents as evidence for your opinion.

It seems we need a reminder that no male person can ever experience life as any type of woman. They can only ever experience life as a male person who believes they are a woman. And there is no way that any male person can even be 'socially' accepted as a 'woman', because even then they are not 'women'. They remain a male person with a philosopical belief about their own identity.

Even when they 'act' like a woman, those male people are acting as they believe a 'woman' should act. Which is fucking misogynistic!

Even if they are treated 'as a woman' by some people, they are being treated as a 'male who presents as a woman and believes they are a woman'. Because their every reaction is based on that. Not on them being female in any way.
Even when they have extreme body modifications, it is to be their own concept of what a female looks like to them. It is not what a female is.

How can it be?

The only way a person can experience life as a woman, is to have a female body, formed around the production of large gametes, even if it doesn't produce those and to navigate their life based on the decisions they and society makes that revolve around them having that body.

A male can conceptualise what it might be like to be a female, but that is all it ever is - their concept of being female.

They may do it because they don't feel they fit into how they conceptualise how a male person interacts with the world (ie. their own stereotypes around being male) or they do it because they want to be seen as a female (using their own stereotypes of how a female navigates life). It really doesn't matter though. Their motivation is irrelevant to the outcome. And I consider the outcome can only be described as misogyny.

Which is that they will always be just a male who believes they are something they are objectively not.

How can the material reality be any different? This is why someone's gender is only based on someone's philosophical belief. And philosophical beliefs are fine for people to hold, but not one person in the UK has to comply with another's philosophical belief.

The logic cannot be any different than that I am afraid. Yet we are told that unless we use the language demanded by these male people, we are lacking intelligence and indeed, education. And we are to be shamed for our disrespect.

And that those male people have to be made comfortable in society by allowing them access to female single sex spaces. Because apparently, 99% of them are completely 'harmless' because they have not been reported in the public sphere as having harmed a woman or girl.

"I mean socially, if people respond to trans women as women, then that's a huge aspect of being a woman."

No, it is not a huge aspect of being a 'woman'. The logic doesn't support this argument at all.

"People don't have the capacity to see chromosomes or whether a person has a uterus, they judge people on appearances and a cluster of significations like secondary sex characteristics. If you've medically transitioned as a trans woman (including HRT, surgery), then you'll share these characteristics with other women (including biological characteristics like hormones and sex characteristics like breasts, vulva, softness of skin, body hair growth), and this is what society will see, and will treat you accordingly. You talk about scientific criteria, but these are significant scientific/biological changes."

Firstly, less than 5% of the male people who identify as being transgender have any type of surgery. And in that 5% is facial surgery so it is much less than 5% who have a cavity inserted into their groin. So, when it comes to 'treating a transwoman as a woman based on appearance' your bringing surgery into the discussion is completely irrelevant to your other points.

It also is irrelevant as to whether that person is a 'woman'. Because they are not. They remain as male as they always were.

Maybe you can answer the question:

What is the difference between a male person who has had their penis and testicles removed because of injury and disease and one who has had extreme body modification to fit their own personal philosophical belief about themselves?

Why is one to be accepted into female single sex spaces and the other not?

"then you'll share these characteristics with other women (including biological characteristics like hormones and sex characteristics like breasts, vulva, softness of skin, body hair growth), and this is what society will see, and will treat you accordingly."

Soft skin... Fuck - that leaves me out of the category of woman! When you repeat this statement, do you see the falsity there? There are people out there who have other extreme body modifications, reptiles, vampires etc. Do those body modifications also then move those people into the category of the thing they are are emulating with their extreme body modification? Or ... are they just their original category based on the coding of every cell in their body - human?

Your fallacious argument fails if someone rejects the pseudoscience and false logic needed to support it. Just because a male person has grown breasts, has a fake vulva, doesn't mean that other people cannot correctly identify the sex of that person. Because the brain processes the complete person that someone is analysing. From voice to pelvic alignment and q angle (and no, no one needs to see anyone naked to assess the posture of others) .

It sounds like you are simply repeating falsehoods from activists now.

"If trans women were men, then they wouldn't have transitioned into another type of being/existing. The deep discomfort with being a man forced them into a transition that allows them to live their lives within a society that seems generally able to accommodate that, and which fits that trans person much better than the way they were before. It's not just about clothing (you say 'I'm all for people presenting, dressing as they please' - I agree), it's about bodily changes and social changes, it's a cluster of significant changes that make you become something different to before, socially and biologically."

Blimey!

This is very much steep in ideological thinking.

No... those male people you refer to are still 'men'. The Supreme Court cleared that up. If they are men for the purpose of the EA2010, then by that logic they have always been men and nothing changes that.

So, no. Those male people have not 'transitioned' into any other type of 'being' or 'existence'. As my previous post laid out, those male people are still male people. Even if they have undergone extreme body modification, they are still male people with extreme body modifications with a particular philosophical belief that is not based on material reality.

They can live their lives like any one else in believing what they want to about themselves. However, just because someone holds a specific belief about themselves, doesn't mean that society has to act in any way as if that belief is materially reality.

I don't know how much clearer the Supreme Court needs to be make it. Just because some people have a particular belief about themselves, and may even choose to modify their body, does not mean society has to treat them as if those people have become what they believe they are. Not even 'socially'! Because even then, associations that have designated themselves as being for woman and girls should now be clearly excluded those male people who say they should be included. Because if an association excludes the wider group of male people, they have to exclude all male people. Regardless of belief status.

It’s utterly depressing to have to continue to clarify that a woman is not a surgically altered man. Neither are they men who have taken hormones, who dress/present in stereotypically feminine ways, or who claim to live ‘like a woman.’

As a pp said, anything that men say about themselves ‘as women’ is pure fantasy and conjecture. Just as it would be if I claimed to be living like a cat. The only thing that all women have in common is that their bodies are aligned to produce large gametes (whether they go on to reproduce or not).

There is no single stable representation across time of ‘living like a woman.’ So not even a woman could choose a path & say look, I’m living ‘like a woman.’ They simply are women, living in the world. Yet strangely men who wish they were women can claim to be living like one. They of course simply adopt regressive gender stereotypes.

A man’s belief about himself as the opposite sex is just that, a belief. This belief doesn’t change the material reality that he was born and will die male.

Biological men should use men’s toilets etc - end of. Why should biological women have to put up with men, who dress as they think women dress, in their private spaces? Educate men to understand their fellows.

It is discordant to see people declaring that there is in any way a grouping of male people as ‘socially women’. It is almost like some people are admitting to being socially conditioned to having no boundaries and to not recognising boundaries of women.

Instead we are to understand that if a male person does certain things, fulfils certain tasks, they will be rewarded with being accepted into the group labelled ‘woman’. That there is a process that allows some people to cross into categories of people where they don’t belong.

It is a safeguarding nightmare. What other cross category belief should we reward?

Should we be rewarding those people who identify as babies and children with being considered babies and children? If not, why not?

Why is it that this particular identity belief gets additional privileges when other identity beliefs don’t?

Can you share a link to the evidence for this assertion please?

Lots of stats here

fairplayforwomen.com/penis/

"that them simply entering that space is a very clear sign that they wish to violate the privacy and dignity of female people?"

You're posted a link to a consultancy whose stated purpose is to provide evidence to support those lobbying against transgender rights?

Could you provide a link to a source that's more impartial?

What transgender rights do you think they’re lobbying against, specifically?

I's another conversation, but I have started to think that organizations that lobby government should be absolutely barred from receiving government money. There are numerous organizations, environmental ones, assisted death orgs, that are heavily lobbying for policy and changes to the law who receive substantial amounts of funding from the government.

It's corrupt IMO.

I don't think TW are any more at risk in men's toilets than other men are.

I do think there are some, particularly perhaps some young transitioners, who believe it when they have been told they are dangerous. Maybe some sort of campaign to emphasize that men's toilets are for all male people would be helpful to those people. Perhaps they could get some prominent TW who use the male toilets to speak about their experience.

There will likely always be a few places where you get various types of bullying in toilets, and homophobic bullying, which I believe is what TW are subject to, may happen. That's already broadly socially unacceptable but that is how humans are. It should be dealt with appropriately depending on the setting.

Helleofabore I agree that gender identity has been granted (by some) a unique status. That there is the idea of a ‘reward’ & therefore being ‘admitted’ into the opposite sex category.

The barrister Robin Moira White was terribly indignant during an interview, where Maya Forstater quite rightly said I see Robin as a man. He actually said I’ve worked hard on my transition. The implication being that ‘woman’ could be claimed if you put in the hard yards!

As you say, do we entertain this with other categories, like age? No, of course not. If a grown man wants to pay to dress as a baby, lay in a cot and be fed, well, crack on. But would that same man who’s ‘worked hard’ on his idea of himself as a baby, dresses like one, tries to act like one, be given a place in a day care nursery, or with a childminder? Again, of course not.

The same man is not an infant, nor a woman should he claim to be. Everyone who thinks these men should be in women’s spaces, would they be happy with a 50 year old man identifying as a 12 year old into their son’s scout group, secondary school, football team, school residential trip?

"that them simply entering that space is a very clear sign that they wish to violate the privacy and dignity of female people?"

You're posted a link to a consultancy whose stated purpose is to provide evidence to support those lobbying against transgender rights?

Could you provide a link to a source that's more impartial?

.Here you go:

https://uvahealth.com/services/transgender/transgender-surgery-faqs

That's from a US company that performs surgeries. Even pro trans sources say that the vast majority do not have their genitals altered

Edited as missed out the post I was responding to

Here are some transwomen safe in men's toilets:

https://x.com/RocknRoller2019/status/1920553022347730977

https://www.change.org/p/boris-johnson-a-plea-for-third-spaces-for-transgender-men-and-women

When passing becomes a check list of body modifications only, you can certainly understand why so many male people believe they pass.

Imagine this:

Passing report:

Breast tissue acquired✔
Fake vulva acquired ✔
Skin softened ✔
Male body hair pattern removed ✔

100% 'pass' - you should now expect everyone in society to act as if you are female.

When the reality is:

Identifying a male person as male report:

Walks with male hip alignment ✔
Male skeletal proportions ✔
Male voice in tonality, timbre ✔
Male skeletal leverage points ✔
Male skull shape ✔
Male facial features, including brow ridge, eye tilt, lip line, spacing between nose and top lip etc etc etc ✔
Male q-angles ✔
Male musculator ✔

This list is very very long...

It simply doesn’t mean a fucking thing if some male people have

Breast tissue acquired✔
Fake vulva acquired ✔
Skin softened ✔
Male body hair pattern removed ✔

Because they will never be able to remove the body cues that people really use to correctly identify a person’s sex. And even the first two on that list from gwen are contradictory when seen. The male breasts are on a male chest. Unless a surgeon works hard to proportion those breasts, male breast placement will result in a dissonance that may make some people look at further body cues.

And those ‘vulvas’ may have added cavities made from inverted penises, repositioned intestines or other body parts and are also not in the same location as you would expect to find in a female pelvis, from what I have read. Because of the differences in pelvic bones that will not change. But maybe to some people, just having a surgical modification is all that matters for the purpose of being considered a ‘woman’ when you are a male person.

I mean when you think about it, to some male people, all the vagina is is a fuckhole. A cavity to accommodate a penis. To me that is what those people have reduced a vagina to when they describe the cavity created in a ‘vaginoplasty’ as a ‘vagina’. But hey, breasts, soft skin, vulvas and hair removal are all signs of how society views womanhood apparently.

Some people really don’t see the misogyny behind gender identity theory I think.

I am beyond insulted as a woman when I hear these TW and their supporters say they are women. No, our biology is part of what makes us women (from menstruation to pregnancy to menopause and all in between) and these experiences can only be experienced by those born female. They have no idea what it feels like to be women. Rather they armour themselves with regressive female stereotypes misbelieving that dressing as a woman makes them so. It does not.

I am also disgusted by the continued lies that they will be attacked by men in men’s rooms which as many posters have pointed out there is not one incident of this in the media. Also tired of the lies that trans people are being killed left and right. Let’s talk statistics. Here in the US in 2022, only 32 trans people were murdered. Does anyone want to guess how many women were murdered in the same year? Over 2,200! And nine out of 10 of those women were murdered by a male intimate partner. so I’m sick and tired of hearing that women must turn the cheek and except any man into their private spaces or sports or any place else that is reserved for women. Women are the ones who are marginalized, attacked, and murdered on a scale that is beyond anything that trans people ever experience.

And another point. The majority of women and men can tell a trans person straight off. Our brains have been hard wired from the time we are born to be able to recognize the opposite sex. That doesn’t just go away because a man decides that he wants to dress and live like a woman. The fact is is that the majority of these men are entitled narcissist who fetishize womanhood. The majority never get any sort of surgery and usually continue to have fully intact. Male genitalia. Studies have also shown that trans women continue to have the same levels of criminality as men even after they so-called transition. Nearly 50% of TW in prisons are in prison for sex crimes. Compare that to straight men in prison for sex crimes is 18%. I don’t want to hear that we women shouldn’t be afraid of trans women because trans women and their activist allies are clear and present danger to the health, safety, and lives of girls and women everywhere.

It was interesting that in the Nederlands, a man tried to get his birth year changed so he could keep working. The court refused. He then did interviews internationally to point out how he was discriminated against because some people got to change their sex markers to the opposite sex and benefitted from
that change. But he couldn’t. He wanted to keep working. Using some poster’s logic, he was not harming anyone at all. Yet he couldn’t do it.

Here is in a segment where they interviewed him and a male person who claims to be female.