Are men going to now wholeheartedly welcome trans women into their spaces? Utterly brilliant if so ...

[loveyouradvice]

Embracing the full breadth of what it means to be a man

If there were any evidence of trans women being at risk in men's toilets it would be all over the place. But there isn't.

It is once again about transwomen's feelings trumping everybody else's

Men just aren't that bothered if a transwoman uses the men's.

You keep doubling down that they are safer. Where is that data coming from that supports that? Or is that purely based on your opinion ?

Are you trying to say that female single sex toilets are dangerous for the reasons you keep mentioning such as drug deals and harassment? Or you are exaggerating the dangers of female single sex toilets with issues you see in male single sex toilets?

Because if these are issues in female single sex toilets, then we really need to understand this and deal with it pronto!

However, the communal areas in female toilets are also part of female people’s usage of female toilets.

For instance :

If all toilets had became unisex, then because there is no family toilet, I would have had a pram/pushchair wedged open for all who passed by to see me go to the toilet. So, with your design, all of a sudden we now need enough extra large cubicles too not just the usual. And would you have expected me to just not go places that didn’t have a suitably sized toilet? There are plenty of mothers out there in my area who have to do this, I don’t know of any family toilets and we shouldn’t all be using the disabled toilet with the baby changing equipment.

Female people of any age would be holding up queues in busy toilets while they dealt with stains from spills of food and drinks from children and themselves, breastmilk leaks, blood staining. I sometimes hold events and there is regularly women drying off their clothes. It takes time so all of a sudden, the queue time is lengthened.

The gap is important as I mentioned, but you dismissed with a suggestion of adding buttons and pull cords etc. How does this help with seizures that someone hasn’t got time for reaching for those things? If they had time to reach for the button, they probably had time to open the door too. Not to mention drunk or drugged women. So likely they don’t have time and no one notices they are there. 3-4 minutes and they could be beyond resuscitation.

And then there is the constant reports of men simply not bothering to shut the door because they are so used to urinals. I have seen it myself where they don’t close the door properly because when they went in there was no one around so they thought they would be finished before anyone else came. And the mess because they are so used to urinals.

Female toilet usage is different from male toilet usage. Removing female single sex spaces because of issues in male single sex spaces is harmful to female people. However, female people have already told the government and pollsters that they don’t want to lose their female single sex spaces.

So, if you have the data that shows that only unisex options are the safest mix of toilets, link it up and will should stop campaigning for our single sex toilets and spread the word that unisex is safest. I have not seen any data showing this and I looked before the consultation, so I am looking forward to it.

If the solution is, as we have been campaigning for, an additional unisex toilet or two where this can happen, and well sign posted , then everyone has options. If the issue is a regionalised one where there is drug deals and unsafe situations (and I don’t doubt these are issues that need addressing), then safety is a general focus as well and councils need to be dealing with this as well and as a priority, to ensure all toilets are safe from that type of behaviour.

But removing female single sex toilets and concerting all toilets into unisex. No.

I imagine the thing they’re most worried about is being laughed at.

As a man, I definitely think we could be more welcoming by decorating the walls of the gents with posters that appeal to TW's femininity. Something like anime erotica and c++ coding tips.

Female people are afraid of being raped or sexually abused while male people are afraid of another male looking at them?

Absolutely as it’s just a man dressed different to most blokes. Since the ruling it’s good to see women supporters here. Previously the threads on changing rooms , loos etc women’s only spaces were not women supported.

I used to work with kids and do day trips etc with them. I was with a 9 year old boy who didn’t want to come in the ladies toilet, but I’d insist as I didn’t want him going in the men’s by himself.

I do believe more needs to be done to make male toilets safer all kinds of males!

lol I remember there was a massive queue for toilets in McDonald’s women’s toilet, there must’ve been a lot broken. The men’s toilet was completely empty. Me and some other women with kids commandeered the men’s toilet for the next 10 minutes to get the queue down 😂 one slightly confused man wandered in, and then scurried into a cubicle until we all left.

Men of unconventionally feminine-styled appearance used to get bashed up in men's loos because of homophobia, not 'transphobia'. I don't hang around with interesting people any more, so I may be wrong, but I believe that has very nearly died out these days.

I can well imagine it could still be a problem in some other places - middle America, perhaps, parts of South America and Africa - but do men in the UK still try to enforce masculinity on strangers?

In any case, gay men aren't clamouring to use the Ladies', are they? They never have!

I’m fully GC but I get not wanting to put your head above the parapet. Mortgage to pay and work for captured organisation. If this teaches us anything I think it’s that lobby groups have too much power. Stonewall has been incredibly successful at what it does. It’s not been good or beneficial to the country though.

The taxpayer has been funding them to create toxic rhetoric which is misrepresented as law. I’d like to know what safeguards we put in place to stop this happening again?

There is a lot to what you say here.

However, if anything has sunk Stonewall, I think it might be this ruling. I mean, their reputation started to crumble with the Forstater case, then came Allison Bailey's case about her treatment by her employer, fully supported by Stonewall. However, it was there that businesses discovered that Stonewall had used its power and the leverage of its 'diversity champions' awards for organisations to show how inclusive they were, to give advice that was completely flawed but who then took no ownership of that.

It was this that started their downfall. They started being outed as giving legal advice that was not reflective of the actual law but trying to sell in their desired interpretation, and then when the organisations were being taken to court because of their advice, Stonewall declared that they had no liability at all.

So organisations started cancelling their involvement. I mean, let's not forget the Stonewall staffing scandals and the things that Nancy Kelley said in the public arena. Then the Cass review also showed Stonewall up for being irresponsible in their advice and their support about children.

Now this ruling. That has proved that Stonewall was spreading a false interpretation of the law across the UK. I am not sure that Stonewall, who was once a valuable organisation who should be well recognised for its achievements in rights for LGB people, can come back from this. It has been 10 years or so since they publicly announced adding the transgender group focus. But they tried to enact change with dishonesty. And when you consider it, the entire premise that people can change sex and that one group's philosophical belief should override other's needs the way this group has demanded, I guess dishonesty is at the heart of the premise too.

Men absolutely do get raped, so do trans women. And if you look at some of the high profile cases recently, the police do very little.

But I fear that we could be going back to the 70s and 80s when gay men were not safe on the streets. Just looking at some of the comments on this thread, I am fearful of the seeming cultivation of hate against trans women, and they would probably be fine with this happening.

I’d be concerned about the safety of transwomen in third spaces too. Third spaces will undoubtedly be infiltrated by dangerous men. They aren’t a magic bullet.

So, is your focus now on the treatment of male people who have transgender identities? And not on male toilet issues at all? And please, stop with the 'Men get raped too' as some kind of defence to removing female single sex spaces. Yes, they do and men need to find ways to make their spaces safer. But not at the expense of the needs of female people.

It is not hate to want all male people excluded from female single sex spaces. It can be said to be hateful to expect society to completely rearrange facilities and removed female single sex spaces that are needed by female people to suit male people who hold a particular philosophical belief that does reflect material reality. Hateful to female people.

You are now also trying to equate the illegitimate discrimination experienced by homosexual people with the legitimate discrimination needed for appropriate safeguarding. Excluding male people from female single sex spaces is nothing like the plight of homosexual people of the past. I am very happy to take you through the difference between legitimate and illegitimate discrimination if you don't understand the difference.

However, It is emotionally manipulative to use such a false comparison.

They aren't a magic bullet.

But they are a better solution than allowing male people into female single sex spaces. Perhaps what is needed is a general safety campaign for people with transgender identities. For that to work, perhaps what is first needed is to stop extreme activists from publicly reminding people of how much they hate people who don't believe that in their philosophical belief about themselves and who don't agree to treating male people as if they are female.

As a bloke, I don't think most men care one way or the other.
All I ask is that you don't pee on my shoes at the urinal.

I have never felt unsafe in a Gents loo and I know of no other bloke who has ever said they do ever.

I think your sample is most un-typical.

The most significant thing that can be done is remove the communal area in public toilets! That's where people loiter out of sight and get up to no good. What is the point of having men's toilets that boys and young men can't use in safely?

As I said on another thread which I think you replied to – men need to do better. Women are afraid of men, transwomen are afraid of men, even men are afraid of bloody men. It’s so sad to see so little on this being acknowledged as the real problem.

That’s a male problem to be solved by men. Not women being kind or rolling over to give up our sports, prisons, health groups etc. it’s not just toilets and to be honest I’m sick to death of reading about loo problems. I’m more interested knowing that men now cannot join a breast feeding group of new mums, or a prolapse support group. Finally we have sense.

It should be seen as being a real problem. And not one resolved by allowing male access to female spaces.

A campaign about reducing male violence is a great idea. All male people.

If you look at what I've posted before I absolutely do want male toilets to be safer, I couldn't have made that more clear. I've never said anything about removing all female single sex spaces, but these should be made safer too. How many of us have taken boys into female toilets bc the men's are unsafe? It's bc we are scared they will be sexually assaulted, so yes it is a massive problem.

At a guess most men probably don’t care.

Transwomen are MEN. They can be as much the arsehole man as any other man can. Women are not to be used as human shields for male on male violence.

I don't know where this idea is coming from that men are going to turn on TW and give them abuse. Why would they?