Female nurses have to get changed with a male. They are told to go to another room. The man keeps the female changing room to himself. Wtaf is going on?

[TealTraybake]

Female nurses ‘forced out of changing rooms’ after complaining about trans colleague

NHS whistleblowers dubbed ‘Darlington Five’ say they feel ‘humiliated and dehumanised’

Read in The Telegraph: https://apple.news/AC7RGaXTPTYe2J4CAixEvDw

This has been explained in multiple different ways.

Unfortunately the poster has ignored the issues around this. They erroneously cannot comprehend that a male person is the one who needs to be removed from a female single sex space. Partly because, from the language they object to, they don’t seem to think male people are male people at some special point.

They cannot see that if the third space is open to all, then others of either sex will use it and no one is passing any kind of judgement. Whereas, by removing female people from their rightful space it is making a morality judgement on those moved.

It is not that hard to comprehend. Unless maybe you won’t read it, or choose to ignore it or choose to not understand it.

It was never an equitable solution to move women and girls who object out of their space.

The same way they find themselves in current women's spaces.

Are you now saying it’s actually not possible to ban trans women from female spaces? I don’t get it.

why do you suppose they wouldn't?

If there was a safe space where trans women could get changed in dignity, without having to out themselves as trans, and feel singled out , discriminated against or misgendered in any way, I have no reason to think they would want to enter an alternative space specifically designated for people hostile to their presence.
Makes no sense why they would.

You're too gutless to admit that you know trans women are not women.

Yet you believe rape survivors should be exposed to a male with his erect penis out.

That says everything about the type of specimen of male you are.

Here's another recent AIBU thread - still open for posts. A male ran a rape crisis centre, and openly used it as a vehicle to push trans ideology, including allowing a female worker to be discriminated against. Even though they were oversubscribed they refused to refer women to the only women only service, the one founded by JKR, out of pettiness, misogyny and spite.

http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/amiibeingunreasonable/5164110-to-be-mortified-at-the-treatment-of-rape-victims-at-the-edinburgh-rape-crisis-centre

type of specimen of male

🥴🥴🥴🥴🥴. I’m female.

The same male flounced out of the SNP when they voted to let female rape survivors have an internal examination from a woman, not a "trans woman".

Just posting for the lurkers here.

For whatever reason, @PiggleToes has no interest in any kind of constructive discussion and is just here to waste everyone's time with endless, pointless, disingenuous questions and outright untruths. I personally suspect the poster is actually an MRA who is spending their day trying to upset women, but who knows.

Nearly spat my tea out at that 🤣🤣🤣🤣!

This is exactly where I joined this thread.

It’s very concerning that a lot of posters seem to believe that trans people exist simply to sexually violate/ harass women. 😔 I don’t know how to challenge this, but I can’t see how anyone could deny it is anything other than unabashed transphobia.

The "third space for women and girls who are not comfortable changing with trans women and girls" would, in practice, be used by all or almost all women and girls.

As far as I am concerned, this solution would only be acceptable if:

1. It was big enough for all the women and girls who wanted to use it and had all the same facilities that the trans women and men get to enjoy, such as sufficient space in which for them all to get changed, lockers, showers if needed. A repurposed store cupboard is not acceptable.
2. It was labelled in a way that made it absolutely clear to all staff that (a) it exists (i.e. not hidden away and not talked about unless you specifically enquire about it); (b) choosing to use it is not discriminatory or transphobic and will not reflect poorly on you in any way; and (c) no males should be using it in any circumstances, ever, full stop, no debate, don't care how you identify, you are not welcome.
3. Any male person caught using it gets the sack.

It’s very concerning that a lot of posters seem to believe that trans people exist simply to sexually violate/ harass women.

No they don't. They believe that some unknown quantity of males who identify as women do it for that reason. Not all of them.

It’s not specific to trans people, we want all men kept out of female spaces. Obviously it’s not all trans people. You’re being disingenuous.

It’s not specific to trans people, we want all men kept out of female spaces

In bold, in the hope that it might sink in with some posters.

I think you're delusional. But as long as the there was actual enforcement (no male people ever at all) and the facilities were adequate I'd be fine with it. But how do you enforce it when you can't define what a woman is, and you have to believe people are who they "feel" they are?

It doesn't matter why they exist. Why they exist and why they think they are women has absolutely nothing to do with people who actually are women and have a right to have their safety and dignity respected at work.

If you are a trans person and you know your presence in women's changing rooms makes women uncomfortable - and they damn well ought to know by now - and you carry on using them regardless, you are not a nice person. You are someone who knowingly and intentionally tramples over women's reasonable boundaries and believes their consent is unimportant.

If you are a trans person and you know your presence in women's changing rooms makes women uncomfortable - and they damn well ought to know by now - and you carry on using them regardless, you are not a nice person.

This. All the evidence on social media suggests most of these male people are well aware. That's why they hate women pointing it out.

@PiggleToes all men are capable of being a threat to women. Just by being in female spaces shows disregard for boundaries. Good men don't do it.

Trans women are by definition male. Therefore they pose the same risk as any other male. Women should not be made to accommodate them in their spaces.

The "third space for women and girls who are not comfortable changing with trans women and girls" would, in practice, be used by all or almost all women and girls.

I disagree with this but I guess we would have to put it to the test.

your conditions all sounds reasonable, apart from this as it would involve trying to police people’s opinions which is not possible : b) choosing to use it is not discriminatory or transphobic and will not reflect poorly on you in any way. But you could have a proviso that women are protected from any discriminatory treatment for using it.

Brilliant. Now go and float it to some trans rights activists. You've solved the problem!

Or how about, the men use the men's spaces, with a proviso that they are protected form any discriminatory treatment for using it?

Since it’s a space for gender criticals, we can logically accept gender critical definition and enforce entry around those. Not sure how you would do it though? Genital inspection on entry? Chromosomal swab key?

Why are you still labelling women "hostile" for not wanting to get naked in front of male colleagues?

Hostile is a derogatory term in this context.

I thought you agreed that these women also had a right to have their safety and dignity respected.

So what is this "hostile" shit?

"Yes, ladies, you have the right to get changed without any penises in the room but if you actually try to exercise it you are "hostile"?"

Which is totally against infection control guidance. I’d be complaining to PALs if this was a regular occurs at my hospital as it’s unsafe to be in scrubs in non theatre spaces.

I don't know what you are complaining about apart from 'you aren't all agreeing with me, it's not fair. Therefore you must be bullying me'.

No we just think it's lunacy to not recognise that men and males who identify as trans are capable of sexual harassment and women and females who identify as whatever are entitled to protection against that.

You instead seek to frame this asa personal victimisation against you on a personal level.

Nope.

There's just a bunch of individuals who think you are talking nonsense and you want to shame us into a position where we are used by men.

The answer is no. We will not accept this.