Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Female nurses have to get changed with a male. They are told to go to another room. The man keeps the female changing room to himself. Wtaf is going on?

1000 replies

TealTraybake · 24/09/2024 17:22

Female nurses ‘forced out of changing rooms’ after complaining about trans colleague

NHS whistleblowers dubbed ‘Darlington Five’ say they feel ‘humiliated and dehumanised’

Read in The Telegraph: https://apple.news/AC7RGaXTPTYe2J4CAixEvDw

Female nurses ‘forced out of changing rooms’ after complaining about trans colleague — The Telegraph

NHS whistleblowers dubbed ‘Darlington Five’ say they feel ‘humiliated and dehumanised’

https://apple.news/AC7RGaXTPTYe2J4CAixEvDw

OP posts:
Thread gallery
22
MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/09/2024 14:18

ItsNotYou852 · 25/09/2024 14:02

Why do you have to be so scathing about it? I have two friends, one post-op one pre-op, both are lovely people just getting on with their lives.
Of course I understand that anyone who didn't know them might be uncomfortable, and neither are the political sort to make an issue of access to female only spaces anyway.
I'm not naive, I certainly wouldn't be comfortable sharing changing rooms with a man. I'm just trying to get my head around it all, so many issues involved.
When I first began to hear about these debates I innocently thought that it was a non-issue, nobody who was truely dysphoric would try to use it to gain entry to womens sports, safe spaces etc.
Unfortunately I was so wrong! I just wish we could have discussions with it descending into the hate that it does on both sides.

It wasn't my intention to be scathing.

But your post comes across like you think you're suggesting something new, that no one else has ever thought about before. That we could all sit down together in a kind and civilised manner and talk about the issues sensibly and come up with a solution that ensures everyone is respected and everyone's needs are met.

This is what gender critical feminists have been doing for years now. You're talking to people who were saying the same things you're now saying, five, ten, fifteen years ago. And we were told, "No, trans women are women. They belong in women's spaces. There is no debate about this. Trans people should not have to debate their own existence."

The annoying irony is that people who are saying, "Yes, single sex spaces are important but what about harmless trans people who have had all the surgery and genuinely do live as women, we need to ensure their needs are met too" are coming along at a time when the tide has already started to turn. The only reason women like you are able to say these things without immediately being cancelled, apparently in the expectation that other people will say, "Yes, that's a good idea, glad to see someone advocating for a sensible compromise at long last" is because people like me and other posters on this thread (and in the public eye, people like JK Rowling and Julie Bindel and Helen Joyce and Maya Forstater and Hannah Barnes and Allison Bailey and Sall Grover and James Esses and Graham Linehan and the LGB Alliance and yes, even Posie Parker, as much as some people dislike her) have already started to turn this tanker around without your help.

We have borne the brunt of all the misogynistic abuse that, until now, has been the inevitable consequence of saying that trans women shouldn't be using women's single sex spaces. We've been called bigots and TERFs. We've lost friends over it. We've been kicked out of online communities for it. We've had dismissive responses from our MPs because of it. Some of us have even been sacked or reported to the police for it. And because we didn't give in, because we kept chipping away at it, because we didn't wheesht, because we carried on politely saying, "actually, women's rights are human rights too and we aren't put on earth to support and validate trans people", the tide is starting to turn. If you point out that the emperor is stark bollock naked enough times, eventually more and more people will find the courage to join you.

And what I think will happen now is that women will manage to recover some of their sex based rights, which may involve the provision of some third spaces for trans people, and we'll eventually find ourselves in a situation most people will be able to live with, and people like Wes Streeting who up until five minutes ago were insisting that trans women are women and are now saying, "we need to find a sensible middle ground" will take all the credit for it and say what a pity those mean TERFs made it all so toxic, it really didn't need to be this difficult.

Back to your trans friends, as you point out, you know them, other women don't. Just because you might feel comfortable getting changed in their presence because you trust them, you can't expect other women to feel the same way. It's not a reflection on them. But single sex spaces exist for a reason, and if you make a few people the exception to the rule, there is no longer a rule. There is simply no way to make and enforce a rule that would allow your friends to use women's spaces but keep Isla Bryson and Karen White out of them.

ItsNotYou852 · 25/09/2024 14:19

ChungKing · 25/09/2024 14:04

We tried being nice, it got us called bigots. It got us rape and death threats.

I know that, not saying we shouldn't push back, not sure what I am saying tbh!
I don't think there is an answer, not one that everybody can accpt, so what do we do?

PiggleToes · 25/09/2024 14:19

RedToothBrush · 25/09/2024 14:16

Waaah waaah waaah reality is soooo mean to me.

Hmm.

Yes.

Life isn't fair.

Your actual problem is?

Do you think this is an appropriate message to send to another user?

Fluufer · 25/09/2024 14:19

PiggleToes · 25/09/2024 14:17

A 3rd space would be a unisex space. Which anybody can use.
And that is all we need.

No. because I do not want to change in a free for all space. I am happy to change with trans women and girls, as are lots of other women.

Meanwhile a space specifically for trans women is outing, stigmatising, degrading, dangerous.

So really a third space for women and girls with trans exclusionary viewpoints seems the most obvious solution. Especially as you people apparently see no reason why a third space for a specific group might be outing , degrading or unsafe?

What happens when the transwomen inevitably find their way into the third space?

EasternStandard · 25/09/2024 14:19

So really a third space for women and girls with trans exclusionary viewpoints seems the most obvious solution.

If it makes you feel better to view it that way go for it

I'll still take that single sex space for women and girls happily.

Demonhunter · 25/09/2024 14:20

PiggleToes · 25/09/2024 13:56

I’m the victim of very obvious bullying on this thread , yes. I’ve been called a lot of names, told to fuck off,
accused of being a male sexual predator, a troll, mocked, ganged up on, etc.

I didn’t “demand” answers from anyone. I asked questions of posters, and answered the questions in return that I chose to answer. As everyone on mumsnet does . I clearly explained why I wouldn’t be answering certain questions; meanwhile a number of posters repeatedly harrassed me with the same specific question , demanding I answer it, even after I respectfully declined.

Edited

I gave you a very factual answer regarding sexual dimorphism in mammals and my stand point on what makes someone a woman, still you have consistently deflected from answering that same simple question and cry bullying instead of answering it. I and many others, have asked a question that you refuse to answer, yet seem to think you have some entitlement to continue answering anyone in the form of a different question instead of the one you've been asked.
You don't get to decline to answer a question that is the absolute crux of your argument while incessantly asking your own.

Edit: just as men don't get to be women!

TheEyesOfLucyJordon · 25/09/2024 14:20

RedToothBrush · 25/09/2024 14:17

I think we'd all prefer to 'call a spade a spade'

Therefore: all transwomen are male.

Great!

Glad we all agree.

Get in, RTB: back of the net 🥰🥰🥰

lifeturnsonadime · 25/09/2024 14:20

PiggleToes · 25/09/2024 13:26

I really haven’t, but your many attempts to twist the narrative are noted.
And to the other pp, it is deeply misogynistic , to suggest that a woman who has an opinion must have formed that opinion solely for the approval of men.

Please tell me how your opinion benefits women (and to be clear I mean females )?

Because from where I’m coming if you have an opinion that only helps men achieve an aim of being in single sex spaces reserved for women then you are a men’s rights activist.

The fact that you think that I’m the misogynist for pointing this out is frankly astounding, and a bit gas-lighty.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/09/2024 14:21

You do realise that many males who identify as women do it for sexual motives? It's called autogynephilia. The act of fantasy about your male self as a woman, or wearing the trappings of femininity. In the past we used to call them "transvestites" or "cross dressers". It's extremely well known as a paraphilia.

There is a recent book by a MTF male who purports to be honest about this, called Debbie Hayton, and who says he is fine with male pronouns. He described the sexual excitement he experienced from putting on a pair of women's tights.

PiggleToes · 25/09/2024 14:21

EasternStandard · 25/09/2024 14:19

So really a third space for women and girls with trans exclusionary viewpoints seems the most obvious solution.

If it makes you feel better to view it that way go for it

I'll still take that single sex space for women and girls happily.

Great

CrochetForLife · 25/09/2024 14:21

PiggleToes · 25/09/2024 14:17

A 3rd space would be a unisex space. Which anybody can use.
And that is all we need.

No. because I do not want to change in a free for all space. I am happy to change with trans women and girls, as are lots of other women.

Meanwhile a space specifically for trans women is outing, stigmatising, degrading, dangerous.

So really a third space for women and girls with trans exclusionary viewpoints seems the most obvious solution. Especially as you people apparently see no reason why a third space for a specific group might be outing , degrading or unsafe?

No woman is happy changing in front of a male with an erect penis. You're lying. Almost ALL women are gender critical.

So any woman that is happy to change in front of a male with his erect penis out, should have the third space themselves. It could be called transwoman only.

Meanwhile the female space stays for female only. As it was designed.

Allow the sexual predators and males who get their erect cocks out to have the third space.

Male, female, and transwomen/sexual predators. 3 spaces. With the voyeuristic males with their erections out, and the handmaidens with them, in the third space. Stay OUT of the female only space.

That is the only solution.

TheEyesOfLucyJordon · 25/09/2024 14:22

PiggleToes · 25/09/2024 14:19

Do you think this is an appropriate message to send to another user?

Yep. To you, anyway 🙂

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/09/2024 14:23

Great

Everyone would know which was the actual women only space, whatever you called it.

CrochetForLife · 25/09/2024 14:23

PiggleToes · 25/09/2024 14:19

Do you think this is an appropriate message to send to another user?

When that user is a fucking GUTLESS COWARD who supporters excluding females from female only spaces and allowing sexual predators with their erect penises to infiltrate female spaces, yes. Own it.

PiggleToes · 25/09/2024 14:24

Fluufer · 25/09/2024 14:19

What happens when the transwomen inevitably find their way into the third space?

Why would that be inevitable?

CrochetForLife · 25/09/2024 14:25

If you are male and have a penis and testicles, you enter the male space.

Otherwise, you enter the female space.

Handmaidens who enjoy watching men get their erect penises out can stay out of the female spaces and go join the males, or the trans-only third space.

CrochetForLife · 25/09/2024 14:25

If you are male and have a penis and testicles, you enter the male space.

Otherwise, you enter the female space.

Handmaidens who enjoy watching men get their erect penises out can stay out of the female spaces and go join the males, or the trans-only third space.

Fluufer · 25/09/2024 14:25

PiggleToes · 25/09/2024 14:24

Why would that be inevitable?

The same way they find themselves in current women's spaces. There's nothing stopping them, so why do you suppose they wouldn't?

PiggleToes · 25/09/2024 14:25

CrochetForLife · 25/09/2024 14:23

When that user is a fucking GUTLESS COWARD who supporters excluding females from female only spaces and allowing sexual predators with their erect penises to infiltrate female spaces, yes. Own it.

We can add “fucking GUTLESS COWARD” (in capitals) to the list of personal abuse I have received on this thread.

MelodyMalone · 25/09/2024 14:25

This discussion has tied itself up in knots! Life's too short to argue with people who are never going to agree or engage honestly. And that being so, I'm out!

I'll follow the case of the Darlington nurses with interest, though.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/09/2024 14:26

Why would that be inevitable?

If you think it isn't, you have no idea what you're dealing with.

CrochetForLife · 25/09/2024 14:27

PiggleToes · 25/09/2024 14:24

Why would that be inevitable?

These predators don't want to be in a space where there are no females. They are not validated if there are no females. So if all females leave Trans Identified Men to their space, Trans Identified Men will only follow the females anyway. Some MRA said feminists should go to hell, as a feminist aptly said, right on cue don't worry, transwomen will soon want in on that too. There is not a female space these predators won't colonise. They don't 'get off' if they don't have a female audience.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/09/2024 14:27

PiggleToes · 25/09/2024 14:24

Why would that be inevitable?

Because being in the company of unconsenting women is the point. If the unconsenting women go somewhere else, where's the fun in that?

CrochetForLife · 25/09/2024 14:28

PiggleToes · 25/09/2024 14:25

We can add “fucking GUTLESS COWARD” (in capitals) to the list of personal abuse I have received on this thread.

If the shoe fits..... wear it!

Abitofalark · 25/09/2024 14:28

RhaenysRocks · 24/09/2024 17:24

I hate clicking on random links, please can you summarise if you'd like us to comment on the substance?

Yes I don't like clicking on links in order to find out what a thread is about but to be fair, it is summarised in the paragraph length thread title rather than in the opening post, which I wish people would stop doing.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.
Swipe left for the next trending thread