To ask if anyone else on MN is not anti-trans?

[Lilieee]

I'm not interested in someone 'debunking the trans agenda' or how no one on here is like that, all I'm interested in is if any pro-trans Mumsnetters could pop up so I don't feel alone

As I see it, those who think that a man (for example) who wants to behave or present in ways stereotypically associated with women can’t still call himself a man, but needs to call himself a woman, are the ones who are reinforcing and perpetuating regressive "narrow gender roles".

Are you saying you need statistical evidence to prove that men attack women more than women attack men? I suggest you start with the BBC news on any given day…

1. It's about MALES, not trans.
2. The 'oh trans suicide higher' gaslighting and Suicide Idealisation and Promotion the MRAs promote is a load of bs. Their suicide rates are not high, and studies have debunked the myth. Also, most of any suicides are post surgery. The belief for that seem to be that the reason is they realise surgery didn't actually change their sex so become despondent at realising it was all a fantasy.

What?? You are very confused.
Take trans privilege activist advice and " educate yourself!" once you have "educated" yourself I think you might understand more about sex differences.

I was having an interesting conversation about this in a pub a few months ago. Thats why I said "heard" and not extensively researched.

Can you provide any sources or are you just looking for a fight this morning?

Transwomen are very likely to be victims of crime

In fact men are more likely to be victims of crime than women

Gay men are also more likely to be victims than men in general

In all cases the perpetrators tend to be other men

We cannot therefore think that victim status is particularly relevant , we cannot protect men from other men

We can protect women against a particular form of violence- sexual assault

The evidence is that transwomen behave like men when it comes to sexual assualt - the evidence suggests that transowmen and men are much more likely to sexually assault a femaletgeb other females

You want to abolish gender, but you're calliing me a 'meangirl'. Amazing.

I'm unable to link to it for some reason, but if you Google 'Evidence and Data on Trans Women's Offending Rates', you will find a study about this.

Oh, I see what you're getting at now.

If you make the words "men" and "women" completely meaningless because anyone who says they are one is one, "men" might indeed not be physically stronger than "women", in the same way that "some people" might not be physically stronger than "other people".

People with small gametes would still commit acts of violence against people with large gametes at an alarming rate, but since we would have no words for those groups of people we would not have any statistics about that, and so, statistically speaking, we would have solved the problem of male violence against women and girls.

That's GENIUS!

🙄

but if ‘men’ and ‘women’ are a bit more variable and fluid, ‘men’ might not all be physically stronger than ‘women’, right?

Men and women are biological categories, and men on average will be significantly stronger. That is not going to change.

100% the whole trans concept is predicated on gender stereotypes, it’s not based on biological reality so cannot be anything else other than stereotypes.

I cannot, for the life of me understand why so many women are enabling this. They trot t out the trope of “be kind” yet are very happy to enable trauma and exclusion and physical and sexual harm to women.

Why do some women pander to men so much, to an extent where they deny reality and try and make everyone do the same, I find the enablers harder to understand than the actual trans person who usually has a narrow set of drivers/motives

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-how-many-trans-people-murdered-uk

Less than one per year on average since we started recording this information. And, I believe, none at all for about four years until Brianna Ghey.

I think back in the day (the day being around the 90s) very few people had an issue. A transwoman won Eurovision, a transwoman won Big Brother and no one batted an eyelid.

There was an understanding from women, that these transwomen had had a rotten time of it, but they had now had surgery, hormones, a sign off from the doctors and a GRC. There was that unspoken contract; steps had been taken, a commitment had been made and anyone stepping over the threshold had done the necessary.

And then along came self id. Women were kind, women were trusting and we have had that trust abused. Not by the steps all taken GRC cohort, but a new breed who claimed the GRC process was too much of a faff, they didn't want surgery, or hormones, they didn't want to wait, they wanted unfettered access and they wanted it NOW. And anything less was "rampant transphobia"i

Is Katie Dolatowski trans? Is Karen White trans? Is Isla Bryson trans? Is Barbie Kardashian trans? Is Andrew Miller (I forget what name he used) trans?

Thanks to self id, yes they are! If you don't know who these individuals are then look them up.

You would think that as cases like this mount up and up that your average transwoman would go "hang about, this doesn't look good for us, maybe self ID is not the way to go" and they'd be joining the voices against it, but very few are.

And as a result, some women have become much more hardline, saying we let people in with a GRC but then everyone took the piss so you can ALL fuck off out.

I honestly don't know what the answer is, but it can't carry on like this.

And has anyone answered the question yet about those nurses? A man, trying to get his girlfriend pregnant by his own admission (so sexually attracted to women), has managed to self ID his way into a nurses changing room and outright asked the nurses (while in his pants) if they're going to get undressed. If the nurses don't get undressed while he stands there watching them - is that transphobia?

not what I said though. I said Id love a world where ‘women’ as a victim class doesn’t exist. For me I see a glimmer of hope for that to happen in the development of gender fluidity
This has to be the clearest example of believing identity shapes reality that I have even seen.

If only women stop defining themselves as victims, men will stop attacking them, and they will stop experiencing all the disadvantage that is well documented and evidenced across the UK and the world.

Victims exist because they bring it on themselves by identifying as victims, not because of how others view and treat them.

One can identify out of that by giving oneself another gender identity.

Righty-ho.

Ooh interesting. You caught something there that I guess points to my own unconscious bias? Thanks for pointing it out, I'll try to be more aware of it.

I suppose it came from an awareness that there is valid concern that "a man can throw on a skirt and call himself trans in order to gain access female spaces be a danger to those women". So when I used the word genuine, I think I meant someone who's actively wanting to live their lives as a woman? Not taking advantage of a system that's attempting to be inclusive in order to harm others. Not sure I'm explaining myself very well. But I can see how my use of the word is problematic and I'll think about that in future.

The difficulty with this is that there is no practical way of allowing "genuine trans women" into women's spaces and keeping all other males out.

And even if there were, the presence of a "genuine trans woman" may still make that space unusable for certain women.

As I'm sure you know, the people with male bodies will still be on average bigger and stronger than the people with female bodies no matter how you label them.

I really can't see what value this obsession with categorising people on how well they conform to gender stereotypes brings to the world.

I am so sorry. Do you prefer they

Thanks for reasoned reply. It wasn’t supposed to be a ‘gotcha’ so hope you didn’t read it that way. Part of the problem stems from identifying at what point is someone trans. I believe people have different definitions which causes so many problems.

The amount of sexism on this thread is astounding. How can you have such a warped concept of women, that you think a man performing a male gaze fantasy of women actually is a woman? And on a forum for mums, of all places. Make it make sense!

What does "find a way through" actually mean? Either transwomen are allowed to compete in women's sport or they aren’t.

Thanks! Is that "The Swedish Study?" Looking at transitioning between 1973 and 2003? Just making sure I'm reading the right thing haha.

Not anti trans, merely pro women's rights.

@Horseebooks

everyone can have their opinions on stuff, definitely sport is one where people will have different positions on it I think but if there was a genuine desire to find a way through I’m sure we could manage it

Do you believe trans women should have the right to use single sex female toilets?

Do you believe trans women should have the right to use single sex rape crisis centres for women?

You didn't seem to have a grey area on those so I'm interested to see you have one when it comes to sport. It seems an inconsistent approach to me.

And this is why the issue is so nuanced and difficult and provokes so many feelings, I suppose. Not sure there's a right answer really. I'd imagine being forced into men's facilities if, for example, you're a fully physically transitioned trans woman, could be very difficult emotionally and also put that individual at risk.