To ask if anyone else on MN is not anti-trans?

[Lilieee]

I'm not interested in someone 'debunking the trans agenda' or how no one on here is like that, all I'm interested in is if any pro-trans Mumsnetters could pop up so I don't feel alone

Either she's a very tall woman or the men are all shorties 😂

WHEN has that ever been an argument though?? That is absolute nonsense.

On the other hand we know that mixed sex facilities like changing rooms/toilets etc create a massive uptick in sexual assaults and voyeurism - men being men. We also know that identifying as a woman doesn’t automatically result in ‘womanly’ behaviour- it’s often quite the opposite in fact.

So you exercising your luxury belief to make yourself feel good puts real women and children in actual danger. Well done.

Is it not possible to provide for men with trans and queer identities without having to harm women?

Separate the two things.

Men's needs can be met with additional provisions. I'm all for that.

Men's desire to use non consenting women and remove single sex provision, language and privacy/dignity/equality of access from women should not be tolerated.

Lucky for you that you were privileged enough not to have a male student violate you. The rest of us are not so lucky. So maybe you can use some compassion and understanding for all the rest of us.

Perhaps though if you were violated by a male, instead of female, you'd have an understanding and know better than to defend males in female spaces.

not what I said though. I said Id love a world where ‘women’ as a victim class doesn’t exist. For me I see a glimmer of hope for that to happen in the development of gender fluidity.

I don’t care one whit about sports, but I will totally recatogrise the whole system just to let men play against women. 🙄

She can't still go to the Olympics because a trans woman has taken her spot.

Fine, you don't care about sport or any of the women or girls who work hard at their sport.

Let's imagine, god forbid, that your daughter is raped by a man. Or even a gang of men. And she is traumatised by men. After a while she attends a rape crisis group, a safe space where she can talk about her trauma in the company of other women who have experienced sexual violence. One day, a trans woman joins the group. In her head she knows trans women are women because you've raised her to be a good little ally, but she has a visceral trauma response to seeing someone of the same biological sex as the person who raped her in the room with her when she is making herself so vulnerable. She asks if she can switch to a female only group and the rape crisis centre tells her she's a transphobic bigot and they won't support her anymore.

Is that OK with you?

Bearing in mind that even if your daughter is a couch potato who is more likely to go to space than qualify for the Olympics, being raped is something that could happen to any one of us, today.

If you come at it from a utilitarian point of view, then you should be completely against trans organisations and the many posters here labelling disagreement or disbelief as hate. That's just unnecessarily upsetting. The way to minimise harms all around is to say people can dress or identify however they like, but help them to build up the resilience so that for the less than 1% of time they want to be in single sex spaces, they can be safe and comfortable enough in their own sex spaces or a gender neutral option.

Where there is a conflict of rights/interests the solution can't be based on insulting the other side.

Women didn't get the vote by insulting men. Men undermined the suffragettes by saying they were unworthy.

I think there is a clear conflict of rights here. The trans rights and the right of natal female human people to protect certain spaces from predatory men.

If you argue sex is a construct, burn down all barriers etc - then you were never preyed upon by a man who breached all the rules and protect to access vulnerable girls/women.

How can we protect women and girls from those that say they are women but are motivated predators?

I know these people are different from the true transwomen but the law can't filter for that so it's a catch 22 unless we give up a long and tested tradition of safe spaces.

How can we distinguish between true trans and false? Is there a way?

Up to now it's been 'passing as' it that's now considered inadequate I think.

Women don’t need or want a descriptor, ffs.
No ‘just’ about it.

Out of curiosity What is your definition of a ‘genuine trans woman’?

And as we can see, the majority of women ARE bothered by it, and speaking out. So you are WRONG!

If it is so important for women to be understanding and tolerant of the needs and feelings of this group of men,

why cannot this group of men reciprocate and be understanding and tolerant of the needs and feelings of women?

Somebody several pages back mentioned something along the lines of those of us with GC views enabling the patriarchy (not a direct quote but my reading of their post). The greatest trick the patriarchy ever played was convincing some women that some men are more vulnerable than they are. Trust me, it's not us upholding the patriarchy, we're the ones fighting it.

For what it's worth OP most of us started out with the same #bekind attitude that you've got and then certain people took the piss and we started reading up on things then changed our mind.

For those of you saying "I don't mind sharing spaces with TW" - good for you. But consent isn't transferable and I - along with many others do not consent. Why not have a think about why you're much happier to make a TW feel more comfortable than the rest of us ordinary women. Because I know why and once you see it, you can't unsee it.

The problem is many TW don't want third spaces, they want to use women's spaces for validation as women. If third spaces had been asked for all along, I'm sure most women would have helped campaign for them.
I'm one of the people who started out as an ally. I followed the career of Charlie Martin and was a huge supporter of her struggle and I feel she was representative of what a transwomen used to be and I would have treated her as female.
But I have been peaked by the behaviour of so many TRAs and the violence they show women, the hounding of lesbians, all the demands and the policing of speech. There have been so many examples of men taking advantage of self ID, it's difficult now to just say be kind.
Edited for typo

How about you MRAs bore off with your talk of these mythical posts that NEVER EXISTED, and that you can never provide proof of?! Have the guts to back yourself or stop talking about fake posts.

I agree. Trouble is, as we can see, there are legions of women desperate to prove how ‘kind’ they are (only to trans ppl though, not to women or children) and will invite them right into the women’s.

I am continually amazed at how these women who presumably see themselves as ‘good’ people are so selective in their benevolence. Is this actually internalised misogyny? I’d like to understand their motivations.

Absolutely pathetic that I’m being called transphobic by anti trans who would actually agree with me on the sport issue, just in order to pick a fight.

Your poor relative, sounds like he went through a lot. I hope he's living happily now. Obviously I can't comment on a stranger's experience as I have no idea.

The idea on Mumsnet that men would transition and live as women just to gain access to abuse women is ridiculous
@ClonedSquare

But according to gender ideology, they do not have to transition and live as a woman because one's gender expression, does not need to match one's gender identity and no-one can question someone else's gender identity. So there are men who present as male and now enter women's spaces. They understand the safeguarding loophole very well. Men have become priests, teachers, and scout leaders to access victims the past, so also not sure why claiming a trans identity would be something predators would not do. The stats show that male sex offenders in prison with a trans identity are disproportionately high compared to the trans population in wider society. Which either means trans identified males are more likely to be sex offenders or, more likely, that sex offenders are claiming a trans identity in a bid to be moved to a woman's prison. Gender ideology has also meant an increase in 'gender neutral' changing rooms and toilets and a freedom on information request has shown that nearly all sexual assaults occur in gender neutral (mixed sex) changing rooms.

I don't believe someone feeling "uncomfortable" having a transwoman in their female hospital ward is a reason to make a transwoman stay on a male ward where they are likely to be much more uncomfortable and at risk. Ditto for prisons and other "non optional" spaces

All you are saying here is that you prioritise people who are male over people who are female. This is misogyny.

But not why people are so hateful to the idea they might choose to socially transition or transition fully as an adult
Feminists support people presenting in non-gender conforming ways as we don't believe people should be limited by sex based stereotypes. We just think they should be recognised as gender non-conforming rather than treated as if they were the opposite sex in all and every situation, as that harms and disadvantages women..

The rhetoric around transgender people today reminds me of how gay people were spoken about in the past. Plenty of the people I know who are anti trans would be shocked to be considered homophobic yet can't see the clear parallels with transgender issues. They will be on the wrong side of history just like the homophobes of the past

Its nothing like that. Gay men were hated by homophobes for being gay. No feminist standing up for women has a problem with a man being trans identified. We just have an issue with them being male in female spaces or sports. Just as we would have a problem with a gay man being in female spaces or sports. Nothing to do with them being gay or trans. Only to do with them being male.

Thanks for clarifying. Not all trans prisoners who are in female prisons behave like this. I knew someone who was in Style for a non violent offence as were the two trans people there. One got their act together and went on to a better life, as did the woman, sadly the other couldn't cope with life outside, so reoffended to get back in.

@Lilieee I would describe myself as a trans ally, definitely.

I find that Mumsnet in general is very out of step with public opinion on trans issues. It's not at all representative of the female population as a whole in that regard.

I think its somewhat ironic that some posters are "invading" a "female space" where we are talking about supporting trans people with their own views OP specifically said they didn't want to hear.

Because emotional labour is womens work