To ask if anyone else on MN is not anti-trans?

[Lilieee]

I'm not interested in someone 'debunking the trans agenda' or how no one on here is like that, all I'm interested in is if any pro-trans Mumsnetters could pop up so I don't feel alone

I don’t know exactly what care you’re seeking. Presumably you have conversations with care providers and your needs are handled at that level, so I don’t see what me saying anything about it would do. it feels like you want me to say ‘you’ll have to have a trans doctor’ so you can be mad at me. I think if you were uncomfortable with any care provider that you were introduced to, for any reason, you should be able to request a different one.

It’s people like you, using insulting language because someone disagrees with you, who make things so divisive.

No, they are just pointing out that you don't actually believe TWA literally W. All there is to debate now is in what situations that matters.

I disagree.

You mean correct-sexing? correct-sexing is not 'transphobia'. It seems you want everything short of breathing to be 'transphobic'.

A woman who refuses to be bullied, guilted and gaslit to play prop to a man's fetish is not 'transphobia'. You are simply engaging in mis-sexing and expecting other women to be gaslit to be props, too.

1. It means I empathise with peoples struggles with narrow gender roles and the queer joy found in living outside those.

2. Yes, I do. I understand and respect that people have different views on the term queer. We all have to fall somewhere and I've grown up in a younger generation that has reclaimed the word. If there's a generational gap in how we think about the word, it's our job to work on that together because there's more similarities than differences.

We need to have more open and understanding discussions. Not to be controversial but wallowing in gender critical spaces that everything is awful, the world is going to shit, the oppression olympics just feels so counterproductive sometimes. Just meet us in the middle without getting up in arms straight away!

Are you kidding? You literally said you were all about ‘the vibes’ or something, in the face of overwhelming evidence about harm to women and girls. And we’re being vague?!!

@KimberleyClark

Absolutely pathetic that I’m being called transphobic by anti trans who would actually agree with me on the sport issue, just in order to pick a fight.

I'm not picking a fight, I'm trying to establish how you believe that you saying trans women shouldn't compete in women's categories is a belief that doesn't conflict with you also saying that trans women should access single sex provisions like rape crisis centres / female prisons etc.

And many of us have been called transphobic bigots by posters including @Horseebooks for suggesting trans women shouldn't be treated as women in all areas of life (sport included) so if that poster is consistent in their beliefs, they will surely also believe you are transphobic for wanting sport to be segregated by natal sex.

You’ve yet to explain why you believe a human with a penis is a woman.

These as well! They’re so good, you all just turn to saying random meangirl stuff about the person you don’t like to each other. I gotta go to work but do carry on

You've just responded to my post by swearing at me four times, and I'm the divisive one?

That's exactly why we need to be talking about third spaces.

There are trans people, including non binary and otherwise gender non conforming people, who have said that they would like and would use third spaces.

And there are other trans people, almost exclusively trans women, who have said that they do not want third spaces because this would be "othering", and that if third spaces existed they would continue to use single sex spaces for the opposite sex regardless.

This conversation needs to take place in the public sphere.

Because I think almost everyone would agree that trans people need spaces where they can use the toilet and get changed in safety and comfort, and that they should not be forced to either use spaces for their own sex or be excluded from public life altogether.

But I think that almost as many people would agree that a trans person's right to safety and comfort should not come at the expense of the safety and comfort of the opposite sex. (Generally women, but some men also want and need single sex facilities.)

So if additional spaces are provided just for trans people, and some trans people refuse to use them, the debate will then move on to whether their motives are really legitimate. Because if a safe and comfortable space has been provided just for you and you don't want to use it, it's clearly not about safety and comfort. So what is it about?

Validation?

Because I think most people would agree that a trans woman's right to safety and comfort shouldn't trump women's right to safety and comfort, and even more people would agree that a trans woman's desire for validation shouldn't trump women's right to safety and comfort.

They need to say the quiet part out loud.

There are many people who think that you are transphobic is you make ANY exception to the view trans women are women. Most people on this thread have said in general we support trans people but this is our line on the issue. For some people it is sports, some it is bathrooms, some it is all of the above. If you have made an exception you don’t truely believe that trans women are women do you? You acknowledge there is a difference . This means you are not a true trans ally. See the problem?

I’ve got loads! I’ve been here all morning!

Can you link to some of this evidence please? I've actually heard the opposite in that transwomen are more likely to be victims of crime so I'm interested to read more. Thanks

Just a reminder that “The Equality Act 2010 protects trans people under the protected characteristic of “gender reassignment” from the start of social transition. This protection applies regardless of the age of the trans person, regardless of them being under medical supervision and regardless of what it says on their birth certificate

@Frenchie91 This is incorrect. Trans people are protected from harassment in the same way as everyone else, but self ID is not protected in terms of a person being treated as their acquired gender. Only a GRC gives that protection. The Equality Act works on comparators and a male without a GRC would have to take another male (not a female) as their comparator in a discrimination case.

I don't feel privileged to have been violated by anyone. That's a very strange thing to say tbh. I was not assaulted. But it didn't feel any better to have a girl violating my privacy rather than a boy. I felt violated.

….yup this is an internet forum for expressing opinions

Already quoted them several times - try reading.

Oh dear god, I must have missed this.

Women as a ‘victim class’??

Now, let’s see. How do people end up as victims? Do they do it to themselves or…

You can be as gender-fluid as you like. But you will never change the fact that men are bigger, stronger and more aggressive than women. You might make some inroads on changing their freedom to use that strength against women, but we are so, so far from that (and actually travelling in the opposite direction) that it’s not worth discussing.

You beat me to it. Nonsense.

Who made me the arbiter of transphobia, I’m not even trans, that would be weird.

everyone can have their opinions on stuff, definitely sport is one where people will have different positions on it I think but if there was a genuine desire to find a way through I’m sure we could manage it

More likely to be the victims of crime than whom? What is your control group? What crimes are we talking about?

Trans people are massively more likely to be misgendered than the rest of the population (for obvious reasons) but less likely to be murdered.

I find it very disturbing when trans activists talk about how trans people are at a greater risk of being murdered, when the opposite is actually true. Why would you want to mislead a group of vulnerable people into believing that they are more likely to be murdered? If you care about trans rights, surely you should be happy about the fact that trans people in the UK have virtually zero chance of being murdered, and hold the UK up as an example to the rest of the world. (Spoiler: if you exclude Brazilian sex workers from the statistics, trans people are also very unlikely to be murdered in the rest of the world as well.)

I think it’s even more ironic that you’re attempting to call this out while so many are advocating for the incursion of women’s spaces by males.

Your comment is such a massive reach - this is a public forum where ideas are exchanged and discussions had and therefore isn’t the right sort of place for someone to set arbitrary boundaries on what discussion is allowed to take place, whereas the physical women’s spaces you are so in favour of removing as necessary for our dignity and safety.

but if ‘men’ and ‘women’ are a bit more variable and fluid, ‘men’ might not all be physically stronger than ‘women’, right?