To wonder why some women Aren’t upset about men being in their safe spaces?

[Lion400]

Why would we make it easier for men to be in our safe spaces? Don’t twist my words. This is not about being anti trans women - this is about men not being in women’s safe spaces. Why should women have to allow men in so as to ‘save their feelings’? What about women’s safety, feelings and wishes?

Given stories such as these - examples only but they quite clearly demonstrate the issue. As if anyone needs this. The stats are easily available.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/shana-grice-murder-stalking-police-sussex-a8862611.html?fbclid=IwAR0bJYAs849f0I9VFv7tHw3aguB5C8HZi3yyOMr4LxxIRURs0HBxrc_TxzE

And now the disappointing John Lewis (aka Stonewall) disaster.

https://www.jamesesses.com/p/the-trans-takeover-of-john-lewis

Who puts women first, apart from JKR and friends. It’s a limited list.

Repeating this bit for those who don't read longer posts:

We have excluded men from situations where women are vulnerable because some men are predatory. We can't tell which men will do harm so we've excluded them all.

That same argument should apply also to men claiming to be women, especially since they are 3½ times more likely to be harmful.

You seem not to understand stuff, so I’ll ask a couple of targeted questions:

1. Does it have to be ‘every single’ trans woman who wishes women harm, or is it ok to put up barriers to keep out the few who clearly will go ‘to all that trouble’ to access women’s spaces with ill intent? Put another way, how many women are expendable to you in order to appease a small group of men?
2. More importantly, do you actually believe, genuinely, 100%, hand on heart, that a man who decides he wants to be a woman becomes a woman? If so, do you believe in magic generally, or just in that specific situation?

This mindset assumes every single trans woman has actually gone to all that trouble to gain access to women in situations they would most likely get caught as soon as think it.

What trouble? They don't need to go to any trouble whatsoever beyond saying they feel they're a woman

I do wish people would distinguish between work toilets and public toilets. Public toilets are grim places for everyone with all sorts of dodgy goings on inside them. I understand why there is a fear if TW are present in the ladies even if i don’t feel it myself.

But people are under a behaviour code at work. Women should not need to seek safe spaces at work. If a female employee is so anxious with a TW at the sinks or the next cubicle she can wait for them to leave or use the disabled (just as she would with a male toilet attendant).

Blokes in female spaces - no. Trans women - if they’re comfortable of course

This is straight from the MRA playbook. Fuck what women need or how they feel - it's all about the 'comfort' of the transwoman.

@DontLeanOnTheKeyboard

This mindset assumes every single trans woman has actually gone to all that trouble to gain access to women in situations they would most likely get caught as soon as think it.

No, this mindset assumes that every trans woman is male not female and that they are no less of a risk to women than any other man.

In fact, in prisons, trans women are have proportionately higher rates of sexual offending than the rest of the male prison population. (evidence on this thread https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4714523-1-in-585-trans-women-are-convicted-sex-offenders

So it's not because everyone thinks that every trans woman is a risk ,or every male for that matter , but safeguarding exists because some are and we can't tell which ones.

If a female employee is so anxious with a TW at the sinks or the next cubicle she can wait for them to leave or use the disabled (just as she would with a male toilet attendant)

More from the MRA playbook. Why should a woman leave a (suppose) single sex space because she has been made uncomfortable by a man being there? Why doesn't HE use alternative loos? Why are women second class citizens here?

And why should people with a disability be inconvenienced just because a male wants to access female single sex loos?

We ALL have rights in this scenario - not just the man!

I also agree that we should stop using the mealy mouthed 'safe spaces' as favoured by the weasel words Starmer. Let's be clear about what we are trying to protect - single sex spaces.
These are automatically safe(r) spaces for women.

So because there is a behaviour code at work women shouldn't have single sex spaces?

So if a woman get's attacked or he behaves inappropriately otherwise in the spaces she can raise a grievance?

I'd rather that the woman was not put in that position in the first place!

There is no evidence that the transwoman is not safe in the facilities that match their sex.

Why is it ALWAYS women who must take the risk rather than the men?

Agree.

Plus less likely to get that ridiculous and irritating ‘women are feeling sorry for themselves’ response

It’s usually men feeling this anyway at our expense

And who cares about the comfort of women, right?

So long as the male gets to pee in peace.

Women really are second class in this scenario.

What has happened to make women put their own comfort, dignity and safety and that of other women and girls (some of whom we know to be very vulnerable), behind that of these males?

There is NO evidence that trans women would be harmed in men's facilities whatsoever. And they have said they don't want third spaces which would keep them safe. So what's it really about? It's validation.

So we have to put ourselves at risk in the knowledge that some vulnerable women will be forced to self exclude from sections of society so the gender feelings of some males are validated!

Do you want to say that to the women who were imprisoned with Karen White? "Karen" was a fully intact male, who was sent to prison for rape. He was housed in a female jail (in York), and whilst there, he raped several female inmates. Is that ok then? Those women shouldn't have needed a safe place? They weren't worth protecting?

Or, how about being on the swim team with Lia Thomas, who regularly gets his dick out in the changing rooms, gets an erection, and openly taunts the women. Is that ok?

What if your 13 year old daughter was in a changing room with Bob, who says he has every right to be there, because today he identifies as Barbara? Cool yeah?

Most women obviously don't have a problem with authentic trans women, who are just trying to get through life as their chosen gender. It's all the other bollocks that comes along with that though, that put women at risk. And for that reason there has to be certain protections put in place. If you can't see that, then quite frankly you seem to be hard of thinking. Just because you haven't been affected, it doesn't mean that thousands of other woman have been, and as a woman you should be concerned about that.

Don't even get me started on men in women's sports. That issue makes me so angry for sportswomen, that I could genuinely cry for them.

But it also doesn’t make it ok to go around saying horrible harmful shit like all trans women are men

But they ARE men. 😆😆😆😆Didn't you do Biology class at school?

Please, please tell me what the difference is between any other bloke and a trans identifying way in one single definable way.

Please quote one single post that says all trans identifying men are predators? There are thousands and thousands of posts on MN explaining that SOME men are predators, so we exclude them all, however they dress, whatever stereotypes they believe make them not men, because their predatory offending rates are at best the same as other men. In face FIVE times higher than other incarcerated males.

If a predatory man wants to do something awful to a woman, he’s not going to either go to the trouble of pretending to be a woman or respect women’s spaces. I feel less threatened by trans women than I do by men who are consistently the biggest threat to women. There are some very rare cases like trans people in prison where there should be more consideration - would a separate unit be safer for all? But generally I don’t think making the administrative burden on trans people easier is going to be a gateway to men coming into women’s space because if they would do that, they’d do it anyway. A man who wants to harm a woman isn’t going to look at the sign on a women’s toilet and think “oh better respect that”

Yes, @Penguinmouse, men are the biggest threat. However they dress or identify.

Are you able to tell me at which point these men become women? Is it when they say so? When they medicate? First injection, or after 6 weeks? Or is it surgery? First dress?

And actually, that's a silly argument. It may not stop a determined male but everyone around him has much more redress to report, confront, find help than in those toilets where no male can be questioned because trans.

Taking out the risk factor, do you feel any woman should be allowed to prefer to pee, miscarry, change, deal with menstrual issues, talk privately, pee with the door open while the pushchair is in front them, adjust hijab in front of a mirror, use the tampax machine or whatever without males present in an isolated public space?

But generally I don’t think making the administrative burden on trans people easier is going to be a gateway to men coming into women’s space because if they would do that, they’d do it anyway.

Im puzzled by this logic. Do you feel the same way about locking your house/car because burglars will get in anyway? Or DBS checks, because abusers will find a way?

I really hate the 'mean are going to hurt us anyway so let all the fuckers in to our single sex spaces' argument.
People putting this forward as a serious argument must be very, very hard of thinking indeed.

See also, men are a threat to women but transwoman (also men) just want to pee. 🙄

I don't see the women queuing up to surrender women's safe spaces as any different to the women who ran magdalen laundries. There have aways been women who have been prepared to sacrifice other women on the altar of ideology.

Human nature doesn't change.

Not at all, it's just all they have really to argue with. Clutching at straws, because let's face it, there is no argument for it.