Male born person wins women’s golf tournament and is now “worried about his safety” - interviewed by GMB (Title edited by MNHQ)

[HermioneKipper]

Why the hell are GMB gaslighting women with this stuff?

https://twitter.com/GMB/status/1749329378352275568

This is an enormous male-bodied person - even larger than the interviewing man!

Post edited by MNHQ

Where is it 'well documented'? There has never been one publicised assault on a transwoman in the mens. Not one documented case. Believe me if there was, they'd rub it in our faces and never let us forget. Indeed and in fact, on the contrary. Gay men and even some transwomen have said transwomen never get any hassle in the mens, the most they get is a smirk. They are safe in the mens room. So please stop lying.

Also, just on your 'misgendering' nonsense, it hurts women, especially RAPE SURVIVORS who have to testify in court and call her rapist 'she'. It gaslights women into denying our experiences and what we see with our own eyes. Mis-sexing, and yes, that is what you are doing, mis-sexing hurts women. So please stop mis-sexing men.

Not met, but know of male sports officials that are in favour of it, unfortunately. One an ex-olympic gold medalist himself.

@autisticat Being outraged at a man cheating women out of spot isn't 'hate' you misogynist. Wake up to yourself. Your ignorance is sad. It's clear you have never met a transwoman.

Please be assured that I have no skin in this game and don’t need to lie. I’m just on a forum taking part in a reasonable discussion.

With respect, you have no idea what trans women do or don’t experience because you aren’t one. Feelings understandably run high around this issue but I can’t understand the lack of flexibility on both sides of this discussion. I just feel that there is room for compromise between ‘twaw so we must all share space with women and anyone who doesn’t agree is a terf and should die’ and ‘trans women are not women so I give no shits about their security at all and they can just fuck off’.

I maintain that I don’t think there is anything wrong with trans women having their own spaces (separate to women). I also still believe that the vast majority of trans women don’t want to hurt anyone and don’t deserve the vitriol they face. With that in mind I choose to refer to someone in the terms they prefer as a mark of respect. While there are some exceptions I don’t agree that for the most part it hurts anyone.

Re the issue of rape victims I understand that some men are taking advantage of this entire shitshow to gain access to women to harm them. I wholeheartedly agree that convicted criminals should lose all rights re how they are described. I also agree that a woman is biologically incapable of rape so shouldn’t be described in this way. I don’t know how to balance this as I don’t have all the answers here. This is why it’s important to have these discussions.

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/transgender-teens-restricted-bathroom-access-sexual-assault/

https://amp.theguardian.com/society/2023/oct/05/record-rise-hate-crimes-transgender-people-reported-england-and-wales

With respect, you have no idea what trans women do or don’t experience because you aren’t one

And transwomen have no bloody clue whatsoever what women experience because they aren't one. They are men.

I'm still not getting why I should ever be respectful of any man who thinks it's OK to trample all over women's boundaries

I just feel that there is room for compromise between ‘twaw so we must all share space with women and anyone who doesn’t agree is a terf and should die’ and ‘trans women are not women so I give no shits about their security at all and they can just fuck off’.

Go and read the threads about the ERCC tribunal and see how far you move towards the they can just fuck off stage by the end

I’m sorry if it came across that I’m telling you or anyone how to behave as that is not the case at all. I’m simply explaining my own thoughts.

Oh I get that, but I'm at a loss as to why this particular group of men should be treated any different from the rest of the men.

Why is assumed that on Monday Dave in accounts is a man and of course Dave is not going to be welcome in women's toilets, changing rooms, prisons, and sports etc. But on Tuesday when Dave comes into work, maybe wearing some makeup and a skirt, maybe still in his shirt and tie with his full beard, and utters the four words "I am a woman" we are supposed to suddenly change our speech, respect his pronouns, accept he's a woman and discuss how painful his periods are with him whilst we wait in the queue for the women's toilets.

What happened between Monday 5pm and Tuesday 9am that makes Dave extra extra special, and different from the rest of the men in the office and suddenly gives Dave access to women only stuff?

I agree. I’ve said a number of times that I don’t think trans women should have access to women’s spaces.

I see where you are coming from, @SchoolQuestionnaire and am not hostile towards trans identifying people. I am concerned about children and I am concerned about certain situations- single sex spaces, seats and so on.

You mentioned convicted criminals should lose certain courtesies- if we have to wait for the conviction to correctly sex them then the survivors would be expected to refer to her attacker as a woman- she. That’s never acceptable to me, whether the offence was a punch or rape.

But it's not just the women's spaces. it's the being expected to deny the reality in front of our eyes and pretend that Dave in accounts really is a woman now. Why does Dave get to insist we all call him she when talking about him if he's not there?

Why do I have to respect that Dave apparently is now a woman and address him as such and have to put in the mental energy to correct myself every time I speak to him and address him as Davina, despite working with him for 20 years as Dave, when he is showing no respect whatsoever for women by insisting I do that? Why am I seen as the bad person for refusing to collude with Daves mistaken belief that he is a woman?

Where's the respect for me, as a woman, that Dave 's insistence that after 50 years of being male he is suddenly a woman and as such should be treated as one?

Why does Dave's feelings take precedent over my feelings?

Respect is a two way street. I'm perfectly happy to respect Dave. I'll respect Dave's choices in how he wishes to live his life, he can wear what he wants, call himself what he wants, live how he wants, but when Dave tries to gaslight me into agreeing with him that he's a woman then I shall respond with the same level of respect that he is showing to me, an actual woman.

and ‘trans women are not women so I give no shits about their security at all

It is not acceptable for anyone to be in danger.

But boiling it down, these people are men, in danger from other men (your position), in men's spaces.

So why is this being served up to women as their issue to deal with? I am not responsible for the behaviour of some men and neither do I feel I should be used as a shield to protect other men from that.

Why are women being harangued here, not the man making these spaces unsafe to begin with?

I would judge Dave for his misogyny. I would avoid his parody of womanhood.

I would also find Dave alarming to be around. The latter statement is tricky because it’s similar to unacceptable racist statements. Though it’s his behaviour which is triggering my spidey senses, so maybe it’s justified. It’s his choice to do those things that make other people uncomfortable.

Harvard is completely captured and believes saying Trans Women are men is a 'hate crime'. Many of these incidents are self-reported. A graph once showed 'Strange looks' counted as a 'hate crime'. So excuse me if I don't buy it. A woman saying NO to transwomen is counted as a 'hate crime'.
Likewise with the assaults. Transwomen are known for assaulting women and girls 5 times greater the rate of 'cis' men. I do not buy that a transgirl (boy, so can defend themselves) is at greater risk of sexual assault than an actual girl is. This is just gaslighting at this point, and it's absolutely disgusting. https://fairplayforwomen.com/criminality/

We all KNOW that transwomen are men. Because we know that mammals can't change sex. I trust we are all educated enough to agree on that.

So why are we being pressurised to lie about it?

As a courtesy? But surely the whole point of a courtesy is that it has to be freely given. A compelled courtesy is totalitarian.

Personally, I am immensely concerned that what may have been offered as a courtesy is now being enshrined in law. We have biological truths contradicted in law. That is proper Orwellian territory and extremely sinister.

But ultimately 'trans women are women' acts more like a religious mantra. Just like bread being 'the body of Christ'. Demonstrably false, but people repeat it to indicate their faith and the tribe they belong to.

I don't want to belong to a science-denying tribe that the TRAs are advocating. If that makes me 'transphobic' I will just wear that badge with pride. I believe in material reality.

@SchoolQuestionnaire Lets start with where we agree - no-one should receive death threats. No-one should be assaulted.

Then where we may disagree - no-one should receive threats of rape for saying no to men. No-one should risk losing their job for speaking the truth. No-one should lose scholarships, funding prizes to a cheat, yet a lot of women are doing so https://www.shewon.org/ A man claiming to be a woman has no real understanding of what it means to be a woman and whatever is going on in their head does not make them a woman. It is not a "hate crime" to misgender someone, roll your eyes at them or tell them they are not the sex they claim. It is not "literal violence" to disagree with someone's perception of themself.

I can have sympathy for those men who for some reason hate and want to change their body without saying they are a woman or prioritising their needs over my own and especially over those of girls (letting adult males into changing rooms with young girls).

If I claimed to be God or Napoleon or Princess Kate I'd be accepted as mentally ill and no-one would tell me I really was God or Napoleon or Kate - what's the difference with a man claiming to be a woman?

With respect, you have no idea what trans women do or don’t experience because you aren’t one.

And the same applies to males who claim to be women. They don't know what women do or don't experience because they aren't one.

There is considerable irony in the ‘lived experience’ claims made in and around the concept of transgender.

But our ‘lived experience’ as biologically female people simply does not count. Does it? 🙄

Yes this is very easily flipped

Can we then agree men have no idea what it is to be a woman as they are not one.

If I claimed to be God or Napoleon or Princess Kate I'd be accepted as mentally ill and no-one would tell me I really was God or Napoleon or Kate - what's the difference with a man claiming to be a woman?

Equally, if I demanded to be known as a 'Doctor' or a 'Reverend' or an 'Admiral' then I wouldn't be accommodated in that.

Not because it would hurt anyone, but because words mean something and assigning them willy-nilly breaks down those meanings and causes confusion and ambiguity.

Reality matters - bottom line

@TheKeatingFive Claiming to be a medical doctor has the potential to cause immediate harm, as would Reverend or Admiral, because those terms imply specific knowledge or experience that pretenders wont have - that's why some titles are protected terms.

For those claiming to be something else the prospect of harm to others is less obvious or immediate but we still dont go along with it because we believe such people are ill and therefore need help.

I am sad for those who can not accept themselves as they are and feel the need to pretend to be something they are not but I dont support them inflicting harm on other people.

Claiming to be a medical doctor has the potential to cause immediate harm, as would Reverend or Admiral, because those terms imply specific knowledge or experience that pretenders wont have - that's why some titles are protected terms.

I'm not sure that applies universally. What about being a 'sister' as in nun? Or academic doctor of medieval history?

The general point is that we don't go around letting people claim they are things they aren't. For lots of reasons, but one of them being the very basic idea that words have to have clearly defined meanings to be useful.

The only reason any of this bullshit has got as far as it has is because it's men.

If it was transmen (so women) leading the charge; demanding access to all male spaces, demanding language changed to accommodate them, trying to get men arrested in front of their kids for their 'violent rhetoric' online (aka misgendering), rocking up at male only counselling, invading prostate cancer groups on facebook and kicking off if they weren't centered and validated. Getting actual prostate cancer patients booted off the group for bigotry if they question it, no matter how politely. Demanding validation in sport (although winning and dominating the competition would be a sticking point).

It wouldn't have got anywhere. The men would have collectively told them to fuck off, ignored cries of 'but muh gender!!!" and bollocks to compromising. And indeed off those women would have fucked, tails between legs.

But when it's MEN and their gender identity, everyone falls over themselves to pander and validate. They aren't told to fuck off, and if they are, oh those evil, nasty women! What bigots! What hate! Don't they know you're the most womanly woman who has ever womaned?

The other men look on and because it involves effort and sticking their necks out to defend women they shrug their shoulders and walk off. Not their problem. The misogynists rub their hands with glee, they can't believe they finally get to stick it to the women and be seen as progressive heroes for doing it.

They don't want compromise. And the only compromise would be third unisex spaces, and open categories.

Such a category was indeed launched recently (think it was in swimming) and not a single transwoman entered because they didn't want it. They want womens categories to dominate in, and women have to be there as validation props. How else are they going to get their gender euphoria? (aka boner).

Yeah I don't agree with this anymore.

I think we've had to say that they can dress as they want and pretend to be who they want because otherwise we'll be accused of being bit**es (or insert other gendered slur) or hysterical. Or worse still we might not look feminine enough or come across as aggressive (heaven forfend).

But now I think if someone wanted to appropriate blackness they would be met with a wave of hatred, if someone wanted to pretend to be Jewish it would be deeply frowned upon. Can you imagine for a second a golfer turning up blacked up?

Someone got told off for wanting to be called Nonna on here this week and not having Italian connections!

So why, are we all dancing round defending every other groups seemingly sacrosanct right to not be appropriated or offended but not women's? Why? Because society has been told they can shit all over women for eons and we will still be the ones picking up the pieces and doing the grunt work.

I don't think men should be portraying womanhood at all. I think it should be met with outright vocal condemnation. I think men role-playing womanhood should be publicly derided. They should be sacked and deplatformed. If I saw someone blacked up, you can be damn sure I would voice my concern and so would many others.

And no this should not be in FWR. This concerns all women and I'm sick of male posters and their aunt Lydia shills coming on here and trying to shut women up, put them in the FWR naughty corner or told we are terfs.

This issue needs to be highlighted regularly because women's rights are snatched away without a backwards glance, just a smug smirk from the men that drive it.

Look at America. Reproductive rights are gone and the Supreme Court will look at making divorce more difficult soon so women cannot leave.

Look at this guy here, he doesn't give a damn about the women he is stealing from. He fully admits he has an advantage. He just doesn't care and he knows he will get away with it because other men and the women who crave the attention of those men will be complicit in helping him fuck women over just one more time.

It's time we called out misogyny just like we call out rasicm. It is after all just as bad.

It's time we called men like this out. Womanhood is unique to women. Those that are born girls and reach adulthood. If you think blackface was wrong but you think this is okay, you need to ask yourself why. Why do you think women deserve less? Why is it okay to steal our identities, our sports and our safe spaces?

It's not.

*The only reason any of this bullshit has got as far as it has is because it's men.

If it was transmen (so women) leading the charge; demanding access to all male spaces, demanding language changed to accommodate them, trying to get men arrested in front of their kids for their 'violent rhetoric' online (aka misgendering), rocking up at male only counselling, invading prostate cancer groups on facebook and kicking off if they weren't centered and validated. Getting actual prostate cancer patients booted off the group for bigotry if they question it, no matter how politely. Demanding validation in sport (although winning and dominating the competition would be a sticking point).

It wouldn't have got anywhere. The men would have collectively told them to fuck off, ignored cries of 'but muh gender!!!" and bollocks to compromising. And indeed off those women would have fucked, tails between legs.

But when it's MEN and their gender identity, everyone falls over themselves to pander and validate. They aren't told to fuck off, and if they are, oh those evil, nasty women! What bigots! What hate! Don't they know you're the most womanly woman who has ever womaned?

The other men look on and because it involves effort and sticking their necks out to defend women they shrug their shoulders and walk off. Not their problem. The misogynists rub their hands with glee, they can't believe they finally get to stick it to the women and be seen as progressive heroes for doing it.

They don't want compromise. And the only compromise would be third unisex spaces, and open categories.

Such a category was indeed launched recently (think it was in swimming) and not a single transwoman entered because they didn't want it. They want womenscategories to dominate in, and women have to be there as validation props. How else are they going to get their gender euphoria? (aka boner*

Please save this before it is deleted.

You cannot possibly be going to pretend that an adult man loses his thigh length, tendon thickness, muscle ratio, etc. etc. after four years of taking ‘hormones’.

Your kind of post is why people cry gaslighting. What you are claiming is so obviously untrue that it’s laughable. Men and transwomen should stay out of women’s sports and spaces. There is absolutely nothing whatever stopping them having their own category. Except their desire to cheat.