To think it’s turning into genocide in real time

[Everythingnotsavedwillbelost73]

Just seen this on the news- how can this be right? It genuinely is starting to feel like genocide.

What Hamas did was beyond appalling. But this is also beyond appalling too. Its trying to wipe Gaza off the map. Over 500 kids have already died. Human rights watch have verified that Israel uses white phosphorus against Gaza, which is a war crime.

And everyone is just watching it happen.

“The Israeli army has just ordered the entire civilian population of Gaza to evacuate south within 24 hours. The UN says that amounts to 1.1 million people& applies to 100s of 1000s sheltered in UN buildings & their staff. This is impossible without “devastating human consequences”
Leaving aside the international law implications, I cannot emphasise enough how impossible this kind of movement of people would be. I have spent a lot of time in Gaza it is one of the most densely populated places on earth, there are pretty much only 2 roads south - along the coast and down the centre - they aren’t wide or well paved. I spoke to the gaza health ministry yesterday who said every hospital was overflowing. How would the wounded and elderly be transported? There is a massive fuel shortage how would vehicles drive? There would be no where for 1.1 million to go even if they got there. Rafah crossing to Egypt is not operational because of Israeli airstrikes.”

This is how Genocide is classified;
U.N. Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide:

"In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

• Killing members of the group;

• Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

• Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part"

The actions of both Israel & Hamas fit this description too. It’s just fucking beyond terrible. And it feels like some world leaders are just cheering from the sidelines 😪

@zyymom to you especially, we are Jewish people, not Jews.

Of course they can't.

I don't understand where they are suppose to go? Isn't it already a very over crowded place in any case?

Sorry to quote you again, but the idea that Israel is solely targeting known Hamas hideouts is laughable.

A week ago they were completely blindsided by the horrendous, orchestrated attacks which they had no Intel on at all.. but yet they have detailed Hamas locations for the 6000 bombs they have dropped in the last 6 days?

Everyone can Google the conflict.

Israel must stop the violence and land grabbing!

we need to pressure our mps to promote peace talks

Are you saying that Israel is allowed to retaliate for their citizens being killed but Palestine is not allowed to retaliate or even think about it for their citizens being killed for decades?

Do you think that no children have been killed in the bomb strikes that Israel executes every few years? Or are we now saying that bombing is okay because we don't get to see the horrors? Is it okay because it is not visibly gruesome?

Children, women, men, civilian, soldiers, palestinians, israelis - anyone being killed, tortured, raped is horrendous.

Problem happens when governments all over the world just forget about Palestinians until something like this happens. It is almost as if Israel understands the rules of engagement better so can get away with whatever they want to do to Gaza. Palestinians have tried the administrative ways to get recognised.

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/10/10/palestinians-are-showing-that-they-will-not-be-erased

@Brbreeze Lyce Ducet on the BBC is covering many if not most of the issues raised on the thread including Israel bombing to destroy the network of tunnels under residential properties in Gaza and the challenges / consequences of evacuating such densely populated area and some having the lack of resources to do so.

Agree with this.

And telling people to leave Gaza when there is literally no safe way out and nowhere to go is pointless. Half the population are children, much of Gaza has been reduced to rubble, and they have very limited water and food. How the hell can they leave, and where to?

At the very least, there needs to be ceasefire and an international effort to evacuate people and set up camps, ideally in Egypt if the Egyptian government can be persuaded.

Disclaimer: I haven't watched the news since much earlier today, because I was finding it so upsetting, so forgive me if there's now a plan in place that I don't know about.

@LakieLady There is more analysis now. Lyce Ducet on the BBC is covering many if not most of the issues raised on the thread including Israel bombing to destroy the network of tunnels under residential properties in Gaza and the challenges / consequences of evacuating such densely populated area and some having the lack of resources to do so.

there are also reports on peacekeeping / making efforts

Diplomatic efforts being reported on the BBC now

So declaring that you want to kill someone is now a bigger crime than actually killing, is it?

Actually there is a legal and moral difference between murder and manslaughter isn't there, so yes! One is a more serious crime than the other and the prison sentence reflects that.

If you look at my posts I am ONLY arguing about the appropriate use of the word Genocide. Specifically Israel is NOT committing Genocide by its bombing of Gaza.

Hamas have declared their intent to commit Genocide. Do you doubt they truly would given the opportunity?

After all, they haven't just declared their intention to slaughter. They've done it.

Next level fuckery

As long as you’re not explicit about your aims and you say you don’t ‘intend’ to harm civilians and you give warning that is meaningless, because it cannot be actioned, the world should not criticise the obvious horrendous outcome that is likely to result from your plan of action.

I have heard it all.

Israel is the one that needs to stop first, because Israel is the aggressor right now and Israel is the party with the most power and Israel is supposed to be the progressive democratic state and needs to act as such. It is not defence to do this. Hamas is a terrorist group who behaved in the deplorable manner of a terrorist group. All this is doing is helping to legitimise them when they are evil and one thing the neither Israel or Palestine needs is for them to get more support. All that is going to happen is more terrorist support in the West Bank.

Is Putin quite mad ? (Yes, obvs, but even so .. ) I'm astonished to see he says an Israeli ground offensive is unacceptably violent. I agree that an Israeli ground offensive will simply make things worse for everyone but, given Russias invasion of Ukraine how can Putin say this without choking on his words ? There is a serious amount of hyperbole & hypocrisy on the 'International Stage' right now.

Well it might have helped if Arabs hadn't attacked Israel, lost, and lost land as a direct result of their own aggression!

Own goal there.

Hamas are an Isis style death cult who want to wipe Isreal off the map. Genuine Genocide is their stated intention. And they are supportde by the Palestinian people, sadly.

I understand why, as Palestinians have become so hopeless over decades, they have been radicalised into justifying evil.

The actions of Hamas last week were evil and barbaric. There is a difference between that and a justfied war in response, and you all stating that they are morally equivalent is nonsense, unless you are a pacifist?
Unless you think the French, German, Russian civilans in WW2 was as abhorrent as the concentration camps, because thery're all deaths?

What is now going to happen to the Palestinian people is horrific and a tragedy, but the resosnsility for that is on Hamas.

They wanted this resposne, they set this up, they want the women and children to stay, they hide behind them, it builds the narrative they want. They are so fundemental in their righteousness they are prepared to sacrifice their own children to thier cause.

What other nation in war, is expected to give warnings to civilians? Only Iseral and they do. Hamas are their targets not the civilians the want the civilians out. Hamas should be organising this. Isreal have tride to get Eygpt to open the border and they refuse, and Hamas don't want them to leave, they want the childern to die so Isreal will be condemned. When will you see the diffrence?

The Arab states have abandoned the Palestinians. Why aren't you asking why Saudi isn't airlifting them? Or Egypt mobilising to get as many out in the time allowed as possible instaed of keeping the border closed?

What other country in war is expectde to both protect themselves and rescue the families of those who attack them? They can't. They give warnings and Hamas, and thier Arab allies hould be getting them out. But they're not.

Hamas are prepared to sacrfice their families to make Isrealis look bad and get the resposne you are showing here.

The death of these childern is going to be unbearable, but their blood is on the hands of Hamas when they delibrately gave Isreal no choice but to go into Gaza after the atrocites they committed.
Should Isreal just abondon their hostages?
Many of whom are childern alone, because they killed thier parents, and Hamas is threatening to execute them live on TV.

There is no moral equivalence here and if you are still making that case you have misunderstood Hamas. They are the same people that blew up a concert of litte girls in Manchester. They do not care about dying, they will sacrifice their families and people, they only care about killing Jews and those that support them. That's not war it's barbaric terror which has to be stopped.

I'm praying that the Palestinain people uprise and reject Hamas and realise they've been led down a path which means they've committed evil acts and sacrified themselves, their children and their future.

It's all an unbearable tragedy.

And sadmumuk how can there be peace talks when one side refuses the other side the right to even exist?

Every previous peace talk has failed on this issue. The two state solution has been offered up 5 times. Accepted every time by Israel, rejected every time by Palestine.

Well said MalagaNights

The Arab states are cautious to initiate WW3 as they know Israel is the spoilt child of the US.

Israel has rejected self determination for Palestinians and the Palestinian Authority from the West Bank have said the Israeli PM has not turned up to talks on a two state solution.

Israel continues to push and steal more land then get upset when Palestinians push back.

There is a legal difference between murder and manslaughter so yes, intent is important.

At the same time a person can plan murder till the cows come home, even threaten someone with it and they will not be punished for it except maybe a restraining order. A person who actually commits manslaughter will be punished.

Hamas can declare their intention to commit genocide and as you said they will not be given the chance to it. But Israel actually goes ahead and bombs Gaza every few year. The differential in the number of Palestinians and Israelis who have died is huge - it is in multiples. So Israel is actually going ahead and doing it.

Israel is allowed to protect itself, it is allowed to use reasonable force, it is not allowed to or at least should not be allowed to bomb Gaza indiscriminately.

I have no idea how even a population of Israel support their government and IDF in indiscriminate bombing of Gaza. It is morally reprehensible.

It is almost as if when things are done slowly and methodically it becomes normal. Photos of children from Gaza blinded, maimed, damaged do not make any difference to the world anymore because it is so commonplace. Exactly, as photos of starved children from yemen dont make anyone stop and pay attention anymore.

I also dont understand when people supporting Israel say that Hamas hides amongst the people so we have to bomb them or the warnings for people to move out from an area or a building. Is it only civilians who hear those warnings? If Hamas are hiding with the people they will move too. So the cynical me thinks that it is just to obliterate the infrastructure and pacify their electorate. Gaza population being killed is neither here nor there.

I despair.

I'm incredibly troubled by the rhetoric that any sympathy for innocent Palestinians is anti semitic. Quite obviously what Hammas did last weekend was terrorism and unthinkably evil. But want Isreal are now doing is also unspeakable. The Palestinians can't just leave. As Israel is well aware. They will die. In their thousands. If not from
Bombs, from lack of water, power, food, medicine and from disease eventually caused by the conditions.
I can't get my head around why western countries are supporting this instead of causing for cease fire, helping to evacuate these people, and helping Israel extricate and punish Hammas by means other than bombing the entire Gaza Strip and everyone in it.

And yes @Gardenowl I've also thought that if they are warning everyone to leave, they are also clearly warning Hammas. Or do they think they are just going to hang about waiting for Israel to find them. They aren't brave freedom fighters. They are cowardly terrorists. They are probably the only people they will manage to buy themselves out, leaving everyone else taking the punishment that should be theirs alone.

Israel govt intends to bomb and destroy the tunnels under the buildings. It’s the Hamas infrastructure and resources. Like bombing a bridge.

@piscofrisco

"Israel continues to push and steal more land then get upset when Palestinians push back."

PUSH BACK is that what you call the atrocities of last week?? Push back??
Parading raped women, setting old ladies on fire, posting the videos themsleves, tying up childern and shooting them, killing babies in their cots, taking hostages and thereatneing to execute them live is PUSH BACK??

And the Isrealis are UPSET??

I cannot fathom how we've lost the ability to see pure evil, recoil and collectievly state. No. Never Again.

Conflict, politics, history is complaicetd and can be argued from different perspectives but some things are just pure evil acts which can never be justfied or tolerated.

PUSH BACK?? You have lost yuor morailty and humanity for calling what happened pushback.

The deaths of childern in Gaza are going to be equally as tragic in the fact that loss of every innoent life is, but the resposnsibilty for that is Hamas', because they wanted this to happen and delibrately put their childern in this position.

Hamas have the blood of of Irerali and Palestinian childern on their hands.

I don't know why this isn't a thead about the barbarity of Hamas and the tragedy they are responsible for.