To think it’s turning into genocide in real time

[Everythingnotsavedwillbelost73]

Just seen this on the news- how can this be right? It genuinely is starting to feel like genocide.

What Hamas did was beyond appalling. But this is also beyond appalling too. Its trying to wipe Gaza off the map. Over 500 kids have already died. Human rights watch have verified that Israel uses white phosphorus against Gaza, which is a war crime.

And everyone is just watching it happen.

“The Israeli army has just ordered the entire civilian population of Gaza to evacuate south within 24 hours. The UN says that amounts to 1.1 million people& applies to 100s of 1000s sheltered in UN buildings & their staff. This is impossible without “devastating human consequences”
Leaving aside the international law implications, I cannot emphasise enough how impossible this kind of movement of people would be. I have spent a lot of time in Gaza it is one of the most densely populated places on earth, there are pretty much only 2 roads south - along the coast and down the centre - they aren’t wide or well paved. I spoke to the gaza health ministry yesterday who said every hospital was overflowing. How would the wounded and elderly be transported? There is a massive fuel shortage how would vehicles drive? There would be no where for 1.1 million to go even if they got there. Rafah crossing to Egypt is not operational because of Israeli airstrikes.”

This is how Genocide is classified;
U.N. Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide:

"In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

• Killing members of the group;

• Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

• Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part"

The actions of both Israel & Hamas fit this description too. It’s just fucking beyond terrible. And it feels like some world leaders are just cheering from the sidelines 😪

The “and everyone is just watching it happen” isn’t true though is it? The UN are on the ground there, the UK and USA are immobilising military forces, what more do you want to happen?

Agree. Am 100% sickened by what happened to the people in the Kibbutz last week but the action now ,on the innocent people in Gaza is another act of genocide,how is this going to make the world a better place ?.
What a terrible situation for ALL involved !

But you don't get deleted for suggesting America might be the aggressors

Lots of people are saying that and not getting deleted, so you obviously said something more sinister.

I don't think Israe are always the good guys either. I bet I don't get deleted!

I just think right now they are not the blantanty evil ones.

It's interesting how we've accepted that if someone says you are being racist you should accept you are, but people who are told they are saying antisemitic things they insist it's fine becuase they don't think they are.

Hamas didn't murder just people who support Isreal, they muredred Jews any Jews they could find. And even just people who were visiting Jews. Guilty by asscoiation so they muredred them, delibrately.

If you don't see this is antisemitic and the diffrenec betwenn this and casaulties of war you are so naive it's hard to fathom.

Innocent people die in military actions. That’s not any kind of justification, it’s fact. Any country would retaliate after what happened recently. That doesn’t mean I think it’s the right or moral thing to do. Again, it’s just a fact. The US invaded Afghanistan and then Iraq after 9/11. The attack on Israel was on that scale. They are going to respond.

I think this is a very emotive subject for you and don't wish to compound your upset by heaping more on you.

However, Hamas are a terrorist organisation and understandably the Palestinian people are scared of them!

And I don't doubt for one moment that Hamas would happily, and cheerfully, brutalise and murder anyone who disagrees/opposes them, regardless of religion, skin colour, political ideology, etc.

And it's the same for all terrorists!

The IRA murdered Irish people. They planted car bombs and didn't knock on all the doors to see if Irish people lived nearby. Hitler murdered Germans who disagreed with him! As well as Jews, Muslims, Romani people, Jehovah's Witnesses, black people etc. ISIS, Al-Qaeda, Taliban, all blew up planes, planted bombs, etc., that also killed Muslims as well as everyone else.

That's because that's what terrorists do! They want to get whatever sick message they have out there in the public domain.

When a NZ man murdered Muslims, the then NZ PM, Jacinta Arden banned his name from being spoken or published in NZ. She said she wouldn't give him, and his terrorist actions, an outlet because that's what he wanted. He wanted everyone to know his name and why he killed those Muslims.

But it doesn't matter why.

There is no good reason.

Just as there is no good reason for the Shoah, or 9/11, 7/7, or for what Hamas did.

Because murder is wrong.

Terrorism is wrong.

And the Israeli government will be wrong if they continue with these attacks. Yes, they want to wipe Hamas off the face of the earth, and who can blame them?

But they also want to wipe out the Palestinians as well.

You only have to see how the Israeli government have allowed Israelis to occupy land that is supposed to be for the Palestinians to see that for the Israeli government, a big problem will be solved if the Palestinians are gone!

The other thing to bear in mind is that Hamas might have been telling the Palestinians not to leave, not to use them as human shields (although probably that too), but because once the Palestinians leave, the Israeli government won't let them return.

Plus of course the logistics of moving so many people and where would they go?

Giving a 1 million people population 24 hours notice of airstrikes, when that population has nowhere to go, only one exit out and also has frail, sick, elderly and young children/babies ro evacuate, is just lip service. So that the Israeli government can say "but we warned them".

I think you're either trying to be very clever with your replies, or you're being disingenuous and naïve. The Israeli government don't have to explicitly state that it's a genocide or that they want all the Palestinians dead - it will be a genocide and it will be wrong.

FT report Israeli President said all Gazans are collectively responsible for Hamas.

There are no innocent civilians.

https://www.ft.com/content/8ea2374e-c21c-4232-bc69-615e36b26caa

However, Hamas are a terrorist organisation and understandably the Palestinian people are scared of them!

What are you basing this on?

It is largely recognised that from opinion polls over last few years have indicated that if there was an election in Palestine, Hamas would be the single largest party

Likewise, what are you basing this on

But they also want to wipe out the Palestinians as well.

The recent BBC Podcast is worth a listen

Will the international community recognise this danger now?

Regimes that don't recognise the innocence of children and non combatants are beyond the pale, surely?

Sadly the Palestinians do support Hamas.
They elected them and there has been polling over the years that shows increased support. I actually undesrtand why, but it's tragedy that they do for them and Isreal.
the tragic history of the Palestinian people could not have taken a worse path than supporting Hamas. It may well be the destuction of them, because Hamas are using them as bait in a bigger war.

Hamas could hand over the hostages immediately that would signifcnatly reduce if not stop the IDF invasion. It would certainly get them international support pressure Isreal to tone donw the response.

But they won't. The want the carnage to come.

They could surrender unconditionally to save the civilians. Hand their weapons over and ask for an international force to take control of Gaza. Refusing to put the people though the suffering.

But they won't. They want the carnage to come.

Any refugess in war leave not knwoing if they'll ever return. You make decision for your family to live or not.
I think if Egypt opened the border most mothers with children would want to leave. I think many Palestinians in Gzaz wuld like an opportunity for a life outside, but the Arab states will not offer it to them. Hamas wants Gazans to remain suffering to justfy their jihad.

Egypt won't support them, and Hamas has told them to stay.
Beacuse they want the carnage.

The Palestinains have pinned their hopes on terrorists who will attack Isreal for them but who will destroy them in the process.

Palestinians scared of Hamas? Only a small minority oppose Hamas.

When Hamas formed in 1987, they had minimal support from Palestinians. But in 2021, support for Hamas dramatically increased as AP News reported:

apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad819c34da08fd87

In 2022, respected Palestinian pollster Khalil Shikaki and his Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research (PCPSR) carried out a survey looking at Palestinian support for armed groups. Main takeaways below:

• 72% of Palestinians support forming more armed groups in West Bank

• in Gaza, 84% of respondents supported concept of armed groups taking NO orders from the Palestinian Authority. This is HIGHER than in the West Bank where 65% supported the idea.

www.pcpsr.org/en/node/924

And:

"....there is widespread popular appeal for competing armed Palestinian factions, including those involved in the attack. Overall, 57% of Gazans express at least a somewhat positive opinion of Hamas—along with similar percentages of Palestinians in the West Bank (52%) and East Jerusalem (64%)—though this is fewer than those who support Fatah (64%).

But it is organizations like Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) and Lion’s Den that receive the most widespread popular support in Gaza. About three quarters of Gazans express support for both groups, including 40% who see the Lion’s Den in a “very positive” light, an attitude shared by a similar percentage of West Bank residents."

www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/polls-show-majority-gazans-were-against-breaking-ceasefire-hamas-and-hezbollah#:~:text=Overall%2C%2057%25%20of%20Gazans%20express,who%20support%20Fatah%20(64%25).

So, the support for Hamas, Lion's Den and other Palestinian armed groups is there from the Palestinian population. A minority do not support them.

Important to note that Abbas' Fatah party also has an armed wing - Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade. So, there is a LOT of Palestinian support for terrorist groups overall.

So, not all Palestinians support Hamas. But it is NOT wrong to say that a majority of Palestinians support terrorist groups.

Denying the concept of innocent civilians is extremely dangerous language

"We" voted for Brexit but only about 9% still want it. And only 17 million out of 67 million ever voted for it.

What was actually said was:

Israel’s president Isaac Herzog accused Palestinians in Gaza of being collectively responsible for the attack. “It’s not true this rhetoric about civilians [being] not aware, not involved. It’s absolutely not true,” he said on Friday. “They could have risen up, they could have fought against that evil regime which took over Gaza in a coup d’état.”

It's funny how you didn't post what Hamas has said

Loay Alshareef لؤي الشريف on X: "Hamas leader: “normal citizens of Gaza entered the settlements and took hostages, this wasn’t our plan nor our principles” This stupid statement will justify to the international opinion that the collective punishment of citizens of Gaza is just! And that all Gaza is Hamas!" / X (twitter.com)

The Palestinains have for decades needed a strong principled charasmatic leader who could deal with Israel and negaotiate, and give them a realistic and hopeful future.

Instaed they've had corrupt self serving leaders who've abandoned them, and hoplessness has led them to support groups who will just fight despite never being able to win in this way. Resistance is futile but satisfying but is not a way to build a nation.

Those groups have become more and more Islamic extremists (Palestinains used to be very tolerant people) and now are evil terrorist death cults focused on destruction of the Jews and The West and who believe this is so just there are no bounds to the evil they will use to acheive this.
Incluing using the Palestinains as bait in thier cause.

I literally posted the screenshot @Justanotherlurker

There'a a weird dichotomy in the discussion that seems to talk about Hamas as seperte from Palestinians.

Hamas are Palestinians. But obvioulsy not all Palestianins are in Hamas. and many support them, but many don't. Like any country. But you go to war with a country, you can't go around estbalshing who thinks what.

Hamas control Gaza, say they want to wipe out Jews nd have shown they will launch barbaric attacks target inncoents in the most horrific ways and take innocent hostages.

Isreal has to take out Hamas, the only way they can do that is by going into Gaza, they'ev told civilans to get out but hamas and the Eygtians are stopping them.

Hamas want Isreal to kill Palestinians they want a global Jihad war and they want to die for the cause and they don't care if Palestinains die in the process.

I really don't think people undesrtand the evil of Hamas and how the Palestainans have made a terrible mistake in supporting them.

In comments on Friday, Israel's president Isaac
Herzog said Palestinians in Gaza were collectively
responsible for the attack. "It's not true this
rhetoric about civilians [being] not aware, not
involved. It's absolutely not true," he said. "They
could have risen up, they could have fought
against that evil regime which took over Gaza in a
coup
"d état

@verdantverdure thats extraordinary language from the Israeli president and actually totally unhinged- it feels like he’s justifying somehow what they are about to to do people.

It’s like Britain bombing ireland because every Irish person was responsible for the IRA- it’s absolute bullshit!

When your enemy don't recognise the innocence of children and engage in collective punsihment, what should you do?

Hamas are so far beyond war crimes it's like nothing we've seen.

But evryone is very insistent Isreal must stick to the rules?
It's weird.

You can be pretty certain that if Liverpool was invaded by 2000 IRA soldiers who went house to house murdering children and raping women, and took 100s of hostages back to NI and threatened to execute them live on the interent...the UK goverenemnt would start bombing targets in NI and plan a ground invasion to take out the IRA and get the hostages back.

They's tell the civilians to get out. Like Isreal has, and you'd presume Ireland wouldn't make them stayunlike Egypt.

Of course they would. That is what governements are for.

(it's not a good anlaogy as NI is the UK, but you made it.)

Wrong is wrong whoever is doing it is the basic gist.

I don't know why people here are surprised by the Israeli's president's comments. People on this thread have been arguing the exact same thing. Apparently Palestinian civilians don't exist. Outrageous.

I agree.

But the standard for a supposedly respectable government official with the power of life and death in his hands is a bit higher than that for an internet random.

@MalagaNights did I say Northern Ireland? I said Ireland. And are we absolutely sure that the U.K. would retaliate with military action? No of course not. As Someone said up thread, when Manchester was bombed, everyone could distinguish between the bomber and the place he came from. That’s not what is happening here. The Israeli president has basically lumped all Palestinians in with Hamas, including the 1 million kids in Gaza. The Israeli demands that 1 million people flee is outrageous.