Archie Battersbee case

[whynotwhatknot]

I was just wondering why we're not allowed to post about this case-the deletion message mentioned it was ongoing so wouldnt be fair to the family

Charlie gards case was on going and there was numerous threads about it

Anyway if this stands maybe we can discuss

The verdict tomorrow from what I understand will have no impact on the plan of care. The judge has already indicated that had she not found that AB was legally dead based on the evidence, she would have ruled it was in his best interests to stop active treatment.

The appeal is on burden of proof for establishing death I think? It was the only one of nine proposed appeal points granted. Which from a legal standpoint does need to be heard for the future-in case the current, established brain stem death testing cannot be used, as for AB.

Someone needs to tell that to Hollie and the Army then as they all seem to think tomorrow is an appeal against the original ruling and that, if they should win, treatment/support measures will be allowed to continue.

Now you say that @Lex345 I have read that before. It's a bit confusing as to what will actually happen after tomorrow, or whenever the verdict is reached.

So the ventilator is going to be turned off regardless of what happens tomorrow?

Whether or not it would have to be re heard for best interests if CoA find there is not enough evidence to declare AB has experienced brain death, I am not sure-someone legal would be better placed to answer that. But the end of the judgement is very clear that had the judge been unable to find that AB had died, she was prepared to rule to withdraw treatment in best interests. It was interesting she added this to the end, I thought.

If anyone would like to read the judgement it is here:

www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Fam/2022/1435.html

I read, though can’t find where and have no idea how true it is, that in addition to appealing the one ground that was granted (which is the burden of proof for brain death being based on balance of probabilities rather than a higher standard) they also plan to seek permission to appeal from the Court of Appeal on other grounds.

I believe this is where it will be live streamed, not before 10:30. Court 71, if the link fails.
https://youtube.com/channel/UCvLfIeTq5grIEkc7JvOpoxg?fs=e&s=cl&cbrd=1

I assume that there is the possibility of an appeal to the Supreme Court if this one fails?

It's apparently very difficult to get leave to appeal to the Supreme Court, especially if today's appeal goes against them, but who knows?

I'd hope it's all settled quickly, the longer this rumbles on the longer the poor child is left lingering on. The one positive is that he is no longer capable of feeling pain but even so, he needs his peace.

The fallout from tomorrow’s likely verdict will be catastrophic. I really hope that Hollie and her family have a strong support system around them that doesn’t consist of the Army.

His mum has been on FB referring to his medical team as the "euthanasia squad". She's also said that the Dignity For All page has ruined Archie's life and that if he pulls through he's going to be mentally damaged by the things they've posted. Members of Dignity For All and Archies Army will be at the court, I can't see it progressing without some sort of kick off.

This is so sad..and from reading the court judgement what they've said is the family have accepted he is gone but want him to die naturally while on the ventilator rather then it be turned off? Yet from what was on the group it seemed the opposite and talks of recovery. So has something changed or just denial. There was so many posts from members about how he'll wake up yet clearly at the time the judgement was made even she felt that wasn't going to happen.

I don't know if that's something that can be properly discussed without the thread tipping over into deletion territory.

There seems to be an awful lot of confusion around the court process. There are people in AA confidently claiming that the family had no chance to present evidence in the original case, but of course it's an integral part of the process that they can present evidence and argue their case, and they had lawyers there to protect their interests; plus, of course, the judgments quote quite extensively from the evidence they filed.

So far as I can see, AA simply deny that the family ever conceded that he cannot survive, but I would be confident that it is recorded in black and white either in the documentation filed or in the record of the hearing, or both. So it may be that they are simply blocking this mentally from their memory.

I doubt that that one worries Dignity For All in all the circumstances.

It's a bit odd that they focus on DFA when there are much nastier things circulating about them elsewhere on the internet. But if they are unaware of them, that's probably all for the best.

The family are going along with it. Hollie has made claims online that three of Archie's doctors, who she refers to as the "euthanasia squad", were also involved in some way with the Charlie Gard and Alfie Evans cases and alludes to it not being a coincidence that "all three children were sentenced to death" (Archie being the third child). Then you have the rest of the family and tbe PA (who I think is either also a family member or a close family friend) who are getting into arguments with people online, sending people threats, openly admitting creating fake profiles in order to troll groups such as Dignity For All and their members, contacting people's employers, and encouraging Army members to do the same so on. At this point its unclear whether the Army are encouraging them or whether they're encouraging the Army.

Its all there in the court judgement. Quite far down but what the family want is there. Not that they accept he is gone but feel he could pass soon.

Ah yes, the "euthanasia squad", featuring Archie's gynecologist 🙄

@toastofthetown IIRC the family submitted 9 potential grounds for appeal, though only one of these was upheld - the questioning whether a diagnosis of brain stem death can be determined via MRI in absence of the typical tests used to establish, which were not possible to carry out on Archie.

The general theme of AA is that they are completely confident he is going to wake up.

Hollie and family don’t really post on the page expect to give Archie Updates but I don’t believe I have ever seen them say something that alludes to them believing Archie is going to wake up and be fine. I may be completely wrong though as although I see the posts that are written I don’t read the comments (usually 100’s and 100’s of them) that the members of the Army make in response to the post.

I didn’t realise the family were being so venomous towards the medical team. I obviously knew there was a lot of anger directed towards them but to call them the Euthanasia Squad is a step too far I think. Why on earth would they think the doctors want Archie dead (in the context of Hollie still believing that Archie is alive)?

I’ve said it before but it’s all turned in to one big circus with poor Archie stuck in the middle of it. I truly hope that following the verdict today the family can find a way to accept the decision rather than pursuing another battle. I understand why they can’t accept he’s gone and why they don’t want to stop fighting for him but where does it end?

The whole thing is so heartbreaking.

I assume they are saying the judge has got it wrong. My point is that it will be recorded elsewhere either in the evidence or the record of the hearing. In any event, I don't think this was ever part of the appeal grounds so I take it that their lawyers accept that the judge didn't get this wrong.

What is all that stuff about a gynaecologist anyway? I struggle to believe that one ever had any involvement with Archie's care. As for the fantasy that the same gynaecologist was also stalking the hospitals that Charlie Gard and Alfie Evans were in and plotting against them, that is tipping into outright absurdity.

Why would a gynaecologist be involved in the care of male child admitted to hospital with a severe brain injury?

In the FB post Hollie claimed the gynaecologist was the founder of the hospital (but it was founded in the 1800s..)

So I'm not sure if she means it's a physician who's involved in the running of the hospital rather than a clinical role?

@Perplexed0522

Hollie and family don’t really post on the page expect to give Archie Updates but I don’t believe I have ever seen them say something that alludes to them believing Archie is going to wake up and be fine.

No sadly they've posted quite a lot about how they think he will recover and that he needs more time on the ventilator because of this.

This is what makes AA so cruel, they're feeding into this when sadly he is very much gone.

I really wish the general public had more basic knowledge about medical science. No doctor or nurse is happy about a 12 year old having their life support switched off. It's desperately sad

www.judiciary.uk/you-and-the-judiciary/going-to-court/court-of-appeal-home/the-court-of-appeal-civil-division-live-streaming-of-court-hearings/

Wednesday 29 June 2022

Dance & Battersbee (respondents/appellants) v Barts Health NHS Trust (applicant/respondent)
This is an appeal against the decision of Arbuthnot J, sitting in the Family Division of the High Court dated 13 June 2022 and a renewed application for permission to appeal on the further grounds that were refused by Arbuthnot J on the 20 June. The applicant parents also seek permission to to appeal the decision to refuse the parents application to rely upon expert evidence.

The case involves Archie Battersbee. Barts Health NHS Trust had made two applications in relation to Archie. The was is for the Court to make a declaration that Archie is brain stem dead and that he was dead on a particular date and second, if the Court was unable to make that finding, then the Court should consider whether it is lawful and in Archie’s best interests to continue to receive mechanical ventilation.

Arbuthnot J found that Archie died at noon on 31st May 2022, which was shortly after the MRI scans were taken that day and that irreversible cessation of brain stem function has been conclusively established. In addition, it was found that on balance, that the burdens of the treatment and Archie’s condition along with the total lack of a prospect of recovery outweigh Archie’s Christian beliefs and the benefits to him of a continuing life on mechanical ventilation for a few more weeks or months with all the other procedures that that entailed.

Not only that they've said its been made up and it's all corrupt.