Archie Battersbee case

[whynotwhatknot]

I was just wondering why we're not allowed to post about this case-the deletion message mentioned it was ongoing so wouldnt be fair to the family

Charlie gards case was on going and there was numerous threads about it

Anyway if this stands maybe we can discuss

The appeal is streaming now.

I've no idea if there's a limit to the numbers of people allowed to attend these hearings, but there don't appear to be very many there apart from the family and of course the professionals

Thinking of PPs' comments about "kicking off", it therefore wouldn't be difficult to restore order if this happens, which would at least preserve some much needed dignity around such a sad case

There are only two camera angles on the feed so quite a lot of the courtroom is cut off, so there may be other people to the side or in a gallery above. They may also stream the hearing into another room.

That's a pretty heavy duty court - Master of the Rolls, President of the Family Division and Lady King.

Sounds like the judges want to swerve the issue of whether he has died or not, and concentrate on the best interests issue.

'Why on earth would they think the doctors want Archie dead (in the context of Hollie still believing that Archie is alive)?'

There have been comments made about organ harvesting

From the comments the court is making this morning, they're going straight to best interest, and they're not tolerating any kind of comment even learning towards criticising the medical staff and their decisions.

Appellants seem to be arguing that the original court didn't do any real examination of the best interests issue so the case should go back to the High Court for them to decide on that. CA seem to be inclined to the view that they can decide it, but are critical of the guardian for not really addressing that point.

Parents' position seems to be "Let nature take its course". What I don't understand is how that works with insisting on ventilating Archie when every indication is that his system has given up and is decaying.

@AmaryIlis yes this is what I always find confusing and can never understand. The argument of 'let nature take it's course' and 'it's up to God' - is mechanical ventilation nature or God's intervention? No. If that is what you want, then Archie should be removed from any form of life support. I have never understood this.

Hearing adjourned for a short time for lawyers for the Trust and guardian to discuss whether to agree to this being sent back to the High Court to decide the Best Interests issue.

Parents' position seems to be "Let nature take its course".

I also get confused as to how they claim to want this to be the approach, whilst still wanting him ventilated which is completely artificial.

If they want it to be nature and God’s decision as to when Archie dies then surely turning off the ventilator and seeing what Archie does is the only way to deem what Archie’s future holds? If God wants him, then God will take him.

The thought of Archie’s body being allowed to deteriorate and decay because he’s dead but still being ventilated for the parents needs is just awful. Nobody can say that is in Archie’s best interests.

I don’t think this is going to go Hollie’s way today.

I got the feeling the parties were being leant on to agree that the case be remitted to the High Court - especially when one of the judges said that if they were going to argue that there was "good enough" evidence already available for the CA to decide the best interests point, that wouldn't be accepted; as I understand it, "good enough" would not be sufficient.

It's difficult to tell from the feed, however, so who knows. I suspect if it is remitted the further evidence of lack of any sort of recovery over the last two or three weeks will simply lead the judge inexorably to finding that keeping Archie ventilated isn't in his best interests, it will trail back to the CA again, and Hollie will still be arguing that she needs more time.

I said on the other thread that it's entered the realms of horror and now it's worse. As pp said, all cultures have standards and norms around the treatment of human remains. The poor staff must be traumatised. Most of the so-called 'Army' don't have the reading comprehension to understand what they are actually 'seeing'.

I missed part of the hearing. It looks as if the Trust/guardian have said they want the CA to decide the issue.

@AmaryIlis do you think if they reach a conclusion today that will be the end of the court hearings, or can this go further again?

I'm not sure what Hollie wants more time for tbh. No one, even someone with very very basic comprehension skills, could sit through those court hearings and come out of them believing there's a chance of any sort of recovery.

I’m interpreting it that Hollie’s representative is saying that not enough research has been done into what is in Archie’s best interests and that until that has been done then no decision can be made regarding the withdrawal of treatment.

Im guessing all that would take though is for some of his doctors to state again the severity of the damage to Archie’s brain and that even if he were to wake up then he’d have no quality of life - and give examples of what Archie would and wouldn’t be able to do.

Am I right in thinking he’s had no further scans since the ones prior to the last trial? Maybe more scans, angiogram and EEGs will be requested to prove or disprove thar there has been further deterioration of his brain?

Mind you, I think that if Hollie saw such scans and test results which showed that Archie really wasn’t going to recover she still wouldn’t accept it.

It so desperately sad.

There are only two camera angles on the feed so quite a lot of the courtroom is cut off, so there may be other people to the side or in a gallery above. They may also stream the hearing into another room

Ah, thanks Amarylis; I hadn't realised that, and as you say there's always the possibility of another room

Here's hoping it all goes as well as it can; the final outcome's only going one way, but it might be better if there's not TOO much unpleasantness in the meantime

It doesn't sound like the judges are going to be happy to decide either way today.

Probably not. If they remit back to the High Court, there will be another hearing there followed probably by more appeals. If they dismiss the appeal, I suspect the parents will at least try for permission to appeal to the Supreme Court.

I'm wondering why Hollie is in court, given that she could presumably watch the live stream from the hospital.

What makes you say that?

I get the impression that the Judges are not giving any weight to the arguments that are being put to them.

The gentleman who is representing Hollie is coming across as really nervous I think, and sometimes he appears a bit desperate….almost like he knows the arguments are too flimsy to be given real consideration.

Lady King seems keen to decide today, but at least one of the others - maybe the President of the Family Court - seems quite interested in sending it back. There seems to be some concern that the guardian didn't really say much about best interests because, as they accept, she didn't feel the issue arose if he is dead already.

They left Devereux with a little task before the break, i.e. to find evidence of what if anything the family has said about best interests. But I suppose that it will simply be that being kept alive is in his best interests full stop.

'What makes you say that?'

Just some of the comments that have been made about the case for Archie's best interests and how they haven't really heard from the guardian or the parents about that, makes me think they'll want to relook at it with the focus on Archie's best interests and not the question of whether he's alive or not. Although it is quite plain what's in his best interests I suppose from a procedural point of view because it is a life that hangs in the balance they will want to be sure?

Who is the Guardian they keep referring to?

There has to be an independent guardian from the Public Guardian's office appointed to represent Archie's interests.

I'm wondering whether they could make a finding on the basis of the available medical evidence that he has absolutely no quality of life and will never breathe or eat unassisted again, let alone regain consciousness. I haven't heard anything about any updated evidence being filed, but I missed the very beginning.

Who is considering Archie’s best interests when he - an almost teenager - is being filmed and photographed to be shared with the public?
He is lying in bed, wearing visible incontinence products and having his mother publicly discussing his bowel movements. Best interests…?