Discussing Palestinian Oppression part 2

[Faffandahalf]

Just starting another thread as the other one is full.

Please keep talking about Palestinian occupation and oppression.

Please follow Palestinian support groups like Friends of Al Aqsa and Mohammed el Kurd (an amazing Sheikh Jarrah citizen) on Twitter and Insta to get info from the ground. This will take you to other sources of infor coming out of Palestine.

Please keep Palestine part of the conversation and on social media so it’s not forgotten about.

Supporting Palestine is not anti Semitic
Criticising Israel is not anti Semitic.

As an aside I have not once seen the previous thread in active after page 1.
So MN have let the thread stand after numerous complaints of censorship but still odd that it never came up as active.

@joanneg36

I categorically reject that the Jewish people have any right to the land of Palestine based in events that happened over 2000 years ago.

I am going to share this graph for a third time. Jewish people were vastly outnumber by Muslims in the time of the Ottoman Empire. In the late 19th century, Jews only represented 5% of the population in Palestine. Muslims and Jews lived side by side at this point - they were not at war. The British mandate for Palestine was specifically designed to allow a Jewish homeland to be created. This was at the expense of Palestinians who owned, lived and worked in this land. It was taken from them. This action is not sanctioned by ANY religious script in my opinion.

[quote catspider]Look at the land stolen from the Palestinians

And approximately one million Jews were ethnically cleansed from their homes in Arab Countries where they had lived for centuries.I am sure they would like their stolen land and possessions back too. There is one Jew left in Afghanistan and the Taliban has apparently threatened his life so he is leaving after more than a millenia of Jewish presence in Afghanistan.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries[/quote]
And so the Palestinians must pay for the actions of other Arab countries? Wow clutching at straws, head in the sand, fingers in ears whilst land grabbing (stealing) at any cost. At ANY cost. Your post is a desperate deflection.

@JustFedUpOfThis

So do you think justice would be to give the area in question into the hands of the Palestinians and Israel as an area would cease to exist.

I actually started out being pro Palestine, anti Israel over 30 years ago. Now i just see a mess where many seem seem offended in the UK that Israel exists

[quote catspider]Look at the land stolen from the Palestinians

And approximately one million Jews were ethnically cleansed from their homes in Arab Countries where they had lived for centuries.I am sure they would like their stolen land and possessions back too. There is one Jew left in Afghanistan and the Taliban has apparently threatened his life so he is leaving after more than a millenia of Jewish presence in Afghanistan.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries[/quote]
This has already been discussed on the previous thread. You have completely misrepresented the article linked. Whilst some Jews have certainly been expelled from Arab countries (and this is awful) the vast majority of that number chose to emigrate to Israel - to the new Jewish homeland. Israel
Offered every Jew citizenship - it encouraged inward immigration.

From the article:

In total, of the 900,000 Jews who left Arab and other Muslim countries, 600,000 settled in the new state of Israel, and 300,000 migrated to France and the United States

This is not ethnic cleansing.

On the other hand, in 1948 the Israelis did ethnically cleanse Palestine - sending at least 600,000 to Jordan where they lived in refugee camps. The Nakba - the catastrophe.

There is no doubt that for centuries the Jews have experienced extensive hatred and anti-semitism from many many countries and especially in Europe. It is well known that many the British upper
Classes were supportive of Nazis and I really wish the anti-semitism of the British and other western countries was exposed and acknowledged. But it is extremely disingenuous to suggest that 1 million Jews were ethnically cleansed from Arabic countries. But they were ethnically cleansed in the worst possible way by Europeans.

I have made sure my children know about the Holocaust- we have watched Schindler’s list and discussed it at length. I have been to Israel twice, I stood silently on a bus going from Tel Aviv to Haifa on Holocaust Day - i was genuinely moved and humbled to be part of that. I have visited Yad Vashem. I am deeply affected by what I saw and read. It was humanity at its most depraved.

But I am also deeply affected by what is happening to Palestinians. What the Israeli government is doing to innocent civilians is also showing humanity at its worst.

@joanneg36, as you mention Ireland, the oppression of Catholics in Northern Ireland and the killing of innocent civilians by the British army increased support for the IRA.

As an outside observer I can see that the killing of innocent civilians, attempts to prevent media reports by blowing up a media based hotel and trying to stop ambulances accessing hospitals by blowing up roads leading to hospitals by the Israeli government will increase support for Hamas.

Support for the IRA didn't weaken until the British army stopped supporting Protestants over Catholics and allowed the Catholic people in Northern Ireland a similar quality of life. The IRA'S support by most moderates stopped because they could live peacefully in their homes. The IRA'S stated aim of a United Ireland hasn't happened yet and may never happen.

The stated aim of Hamas seems to be to destroy Israel. This Israeli government is only helping them gain support as their actions are so disproportionate to the level of threat faced by Hamas rockets the vast majority of which are blocked by a missile defense system that few outside observers can see the Israeli government's response as reasonable.

The Israeli government is backed by the USA with the best weapons and equipment money can buy there is no danger of them being destroyed.

The USA played a large role in peace in Northern Ireland as they were strong enough to force the British government to negotiate, I do not think they are able to play a similar role here as they are too much on the side of this Israeli government to be impartial. USA needs to either withdraw its support from this Israeli government until it is willing to negotiate or another uninvolved superpower needs to step in and force both sides to the negotiating table. I do not believe that this Israeli government has any intention of stopping their current actions unless forced.

So @JustFedUpOfThis and @AIMummy - where exactly do you think all the Jews should go then? This is where conversations that start being 'pro Palestinian' veer into pretty unpleasant territory. The only even vaguely possible solution to this horror is a negotiated two-state solution, and that's where things nearly got to after the Oslo Accords in the 1990s before it all went wrong. But this doesn't seem to be what you're talking about, and nor is it what the current Palestinian leadership want. So, step up and say it. What is your proposed 'solution'?

Should the Israeli Jews all just leave their homes and disperse back throughout Europe? Can you think of any possible reason why they might not feel comfortable with that? Like for example the fact that in living memory, 2/3 of Europe's Jewry was massacred there? Just as Jews have been driven out of pretty much every single other country where they've tried to make a home throughout the centuries. And even now, yesterday in London, hundreds of marchers shouting vile anti-Semitic slogans. Today in Finchley, cars draped in Palestinian flags shouting 'Jews rape children'. I mean really, who can imagine why Jews feel they need their own country?

There can't be a good faith conversation on this topic which doesn't start with a recognition of why Jews feel they need a homeland in the first place.

From twitter earlier. twitter.com/SussexFriends/status/1393925736851984385?s=20

My issue is from those based in the UK who only see Israel = bad and Palestinians = innocent victims. It’s just so much more complicated

Just fed up, many members of the British Upper classes also supported the communist movement and stalin?

I'm not seeing the relevance.

@yawnattack - I agree with pretty much everything you've said there. Which is why, as I've said above, I don't believe a solution is possible with the current Israeli and Palestinian leaderships in place. Both need to be led by people who genuinely desire peace and a two-state solution as a preferred outcome. But nor do I believe the responsibility to 'back off' lies with Israel as long as it is having rockets fired at its civilians.

[quote Ikeasucks]@JustFedUpOfThis

So do you think justice would be to give the area in question into the hands of the Palestinians and Israel as an area would cease to exist.

I actually started out being pro Palestine, anti Israel over 30 years ago. Now i just see a mess where many seem seem offended in the UK that Israel exists[/quote]
Yet again you are not responding to the original question re the British mandate. And yet again you are trying to put words in my mouth that I simply haven’t said.

At 13:57 on 13 May on original thread I wrote

“Once there is an admission of guilt, then perhaps we can look at how we move forward. And to be clear, the answer will not be the destruction of Israel; the land is home to many Israelis and removing them from land they have lived on, regardless of whether it belong to Israel in first instance, is wrong”

I condemn that and this:
mobile.twitter.com/rukiprettyflaco/status/1393892640480022533

I actually have a suggestion for everyone on this thread who is suggesting that Jews should leave Israel and give it back to Palestinians.

What do you think about inviting Gazans to live in the UK instead? Not mandatory of course, just grant them all refugee status so they can choose to stay there or come here. It would be a charitable and kind thing to do. I am sure UK will provide these people with way more opportunities than what they currently have where they are. I suggest instead of directing our vitriol towards Jews who as we all agree suffered from Antisemitism and Holocaust in Europe and even (as Wikipedia tells us) to some extent from hate in Arabic and Muslim countries let’s as Europeans take responsibility and invite the Gazans to our soil. We could do it to the other Palestinian refugees as well, as they seem to be living in camps for a few generations already. I am sure they would quickly adjust here in Europe.

What do you all think? Yes or No?

Just to add, I think hate will get us nowhere.

Let’s offer some substantial help to Palestinians instead of hating the Jews.

hummusforthought.com/2014/02/11/what-did-palestine-look-like-in-1896/

My grandads dad had been in Palestine since 1900. His grandmas brother was a mayor in Haifa.

My grandad grew up playing football with the Jews. His mother had an issue with the influx of Jews on the land because her dad died when she was young and it was known at the time that the Ottoman Empire had rejected the proposal of Theodor Herzl and the British empire to sell the Palestinian land to the Jews and so the sudden influx did threaten the population there.. but they were being gaslighted by the British mandate which is what delayed the uprise..

Jews were a minority on the land and lived side by side with Muslims and Christians. They were a respected and protected minority.

The narrative of history of many people that came to this thread and the previous one, is completely lacking in credibility.

I was confused at how such discrepancy in historic understanding be perpetrated about Palestine.. but yesterday, we met a Jewish rabbi who was born in Jerusalem.. and he confirmed to us stories about his mother who was also from
The natives of Jerusalem, and he confirmed to us that Jews and Muslims lived side by side. And that my grandad was indeed, like I’ve always known him, stating his truth which is also the truth for the native Jews that we spoke to.

Therefore, I can only assume that this level of gaslighting is totally deliberate and with an agenda.

Religious manipulation and gaslighting has been the technique the father of Zionism use to exploit the sympathy and ignorance of the international community.

The only way to combat this is through proper awareness.

Technical details are constantly being used by bots to confuse and alienate those who might be able to make a difference.

When you hear things getting too technical in terms of geography and history, then ask for a reference book. Because most likely than not it’s a huge level of gaslighting to confuse the actual discussion and dissipate any real efforts by the international community to understand the problem.

@Ikeasucks

From twitter earlier. twitter.com/SussexFriends/status/1393925736851984385?s=20

My issue is from those based in the UK who only see Israel = bad and Palestinians = innocent victims. It’s just so much more complicated

That's horrific!

Where is Sadiq Khan and what is he doing about it?

I actually have a suggestion for everyone on this thread who is suggesting that Jews should leave Israel and give it back to Palestinians.

Who has suggested that? And do you think the Palestinians should just pack up and leave the land to Israel? do you think that is what the Israeli government wants?

@joanneg36

“Should the Israeli Jews all just leave their homes and disperse back throughout Europe? Can you think of any possible reason why they might not feel comfortable with that?”

Stop this deceitful behaviour. I have never suggested anything like that indeed I’ve just had to clarify to Ikeasucks who is hellbent in putting anti-Semitic words into my mouth that I simply didn’t speak.

I think the Palestinians and Jews in Israel need to be equal. Israel should not have control of all the Palestinian key resources. Job opportunities, education, freedom
of movement should all be equal. At no point ever have I suggested any Israelis are removed or encouraged to leave Israel, nor will I ever suggest that

But first, and I’m boring myself as I’ve had to repeat this so many times, the original transgressions against the incumbent Palestinian people by the British Mandate and the government of Israel need to be acknowledged. But I do not believe that this Israeli government will ever do that, because the existence of Hamas is such a great excuse for them to continue their oppression.

@BFrazzled

I actually have a suggestion for everyone on this thread who is suggesting that Jews should leave Israel and give it back to Palestinians

Not one person in this thread or the first has suggested or even implied this. You are simply lying. It’s really rather pathetic and indicative of an absence of cogent argument.

Who has suggested that?

I don’t think anyone did, unless I missed it. I think most people would like both sides to find a way to live in peace, as equals and share the space fairly.

[quote Jente]I condemn that and this:
mobile.twitter.com/rukiprettyflaco/status/1393892640480022533[/quote]
Very curious.
Was this demonstration before first EVER rocket was fired from Gaza? When was that?

@BFrazzled yes, absolutely. I'm up for it, and I am Israeli Jew who lives in the UK.

Well in that case @JustFedUpOfThis it sounds like you think what I think, and what I assume without knowing her that @ikeasucks also thinks - which is that the only possible way out of this is a two-state solution.

There's a real problem though with statements like 'the existence of Hamas is a great excuse for them to continue their oppression'. Regardless of what you think of this Israeli government (and I don't rate it highly) - Hamas's literal stated aim is the destruction of the Jewish people, and they direct all the resources they have into terrorism which targets Jewish civilians. So it's not an 'excuse'. Israel's government has a responsibility to defend the lives of its citizens from Hamas. Whether the current government is doing it in the best possible way is definitely up for debate, but 'oppression' suggests that one side is the pure oppressor and the other is the victim. That just isn't the case here. Much as it wasn't the case with the UK/Ireland. There was a historic injustice there too - but it didn't mean that the British government should have stood by and allowed its own civilians to be blown up in pubs, or their government ministers assassinated. There is not always a clear delineation between oppressor and oppressed and there most certainly isn't here.

'I actually have a suggestion for everyone on this thread who is suggesting that Jews should leave Israel and give it back to Palestinians.'

Yet to see anyone suggesting this, or that Israel shouldn't have the right to exist. If Israelis don't want the world criticising them then they should try pressuring their leaders to stop bombing the Palestinians.

@CounsellorTroi

I actually have a suggestion for everyone on this thread who is suggesting that Jews should leave Israel and give it back to Palestinians.

Who has suggested that? And do you think the Palestinians should just pack up and leave the land to Israel? do you think that is what the Israeli government wants?

I don’t really care what Israeli government wants. Why should I?

It’s clear to me that the people of Gaza would be far better of here in the UK or anywhere in Europe. Many would come if we have them chance to escape both the poverty and Hamas and Israeli oppression.
Why don’t we lobby the UK government for that?

JustFedUpOfThis

By the way I’m very grateful for your resources that you shared on the subject in response to my questions and everyone else’s on the subject. I’m going to read everything you suggested after the horror of this situation unfolds.

You have been an absolute gem with your facts.