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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Discussing Palestinian Oppression part 2

999 replies

Faffandahalf · 16/05/2021 09:28

Just starting another thread as the other one is full.

Please keep talking about Palestinian occupation and oppression.

Please follow Palestinian support groups like Friends of Al Aqsa and Mohammed el Kurd (an amazing Sheikh Jarrah citizen) on Twitter and Insta to get info from the ground. This will take you to other sources of infor coming out of Palestine.

Please keep Palestine part of the conversation and on social media so it’s not forgotten about.

Supporting Palestine is not anti Semitic
Criticising Israel is not anti Semitic.

As an aside I have not once seen the previous thread in active after page 1.
So MN have let the thread stand after numerous complaints of censorship but still odd that it never came up as active.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
21
anemona · 18/05/2021 19:34

[quote JustFedUpOfThis]@joanneg36

the reason I haven't suggested it is because amongst 'good-thinking' progressive types on mumsnet, there is only ever one acceptable form of prejudice, which is anti-semitism

I think that very unfair. I think Anti-Arab statements are accepted by many (and if you look at the Daily Mail - they can’t wait to call out anti-semitism at any given opportunity (because it fits their nasty right wing narrative I have no doubt. Not because they genuinely care about anti-Semitism)

If someone spoke about Black people the way some of the people on this thread are speaking about Jews, I'm fairly sure they'd be kicked off mumsnet for life.

Again - same applies to islamophobia. One poster whose comment was deleted but still
Posted prolifically on the thread said that all 1.5billion Muslims in the world supported Hamas. The prejudice has been demonstrated both ways.[/quote]
Which poster claimed that?

No post I saw said anything like that.

I posted that there ARE 1.5 billion Mulsims on the planet. I stated absolutely nothing about them all supporting Hamas!

That is your weird invention. Why are you lying about this?? Hmm

Frazzledfranny · 18/05/2021 19:35

@Blackberrycream

Thank you *@joanneg36* for your contributions. I have noticed quite open anti semitism for quite a few years now and I am ashamed to say but among my social circle, city based, multi cultural and left leaning. That’s for another thread. *@StoneofDestiny* you have been anything but open to other viewpoints. Your last statements about Jewish biblical ideas clearly nail your colours to the mast. Not just Israel then. That’s why it’s ok not to like Jews. Nice to have it out there.
Deary me Blackberry your reaching there Shock

Stone said no such thing.

anemona · 18/05/2021 19:35

[quote Jente]@anemona It was In response to Xenia's post. It's not the first time I've heard this kind of rhetoric.[/quote]
I have no idea what she said as it was deleted.

But given the other stuff you've written on this thread, I am not inclined to take you at your word.

StoneofDestiny · 18/05/2021 19:36

*@Anemona. I'll make it easy for you to search through two threads to find pro Israeli Government supporters. In essence any poster who has;

*said Israel has the right to seize Palestinian lands.
*said that the Israeli Government is using excessive force on the Palestinians as it's 'right' to defend itself
*said that Palestinian = Hamas
*denied the Israeli Government has, and is, breaking International Law
*denied the Israeli Government is land grabbing
*denied the Israeli Government has ghettoed Palestinians into an area too small for them to thrive and has denied the people essential resources and aid through blockages
*denied this most recent conflict was started by Israeli Government forced evictions of Palestinians

I'd say those views echoed the Israeli Government and could be seen as supportive of them.

DeepThinkingGirl · 18/05/2021 19:36

Corey Gil-Shuster has interesting videos on YouTube interviewing both Israelis and Palestinians about sensitive topics.

The “God gave us this land” is a pretty mainstream narrative amongst Israelis as well as is what Zionism was based on.

I’m not sure why anyone would consider it anti Semitic.

Not everyone uncomfortable to admit is antisemitic

Frazzledfranny · 18/05/2021 19:36

I think that very unfair. I think Anti-Arab statements are accepted by many (and if you look at the Daily Mail - they can’t wait to call out anti-semitism at any given opportunity (because it fits their nasty right wing narrative I have no doubt. Not because they genuinely care about anti-Semitism

Yeah - just look at the meme Acidburn posted before Shock

Frazzledfranny · 18/05/2021 19:38

@Menoismymate

‘ We sadly confirmed today that 11 of over 60 children killed by Israeli air strikes in #Gaza over the last week were participating in our programme helping them deal with trauma. All of the children between 5 and 15 years old were killed in their homes

Norwegian Refugee Council’

Just when you think it couldn’t be any more tragic 😢

Awful just awful.
Jente · 18/05/2021 19:39

As you wish. I saw it. Ive heard it a million times. It's the same rhetoric netantyahu and his cronies use, it's the same rhetoric Sharon used. One thing I take from your post and am glad of is that you think it's disgusting to think that. I appreciate that. Genuinely.

Blackberrycream · 18/05/2021 19:39

@Frazzledfranny
No not reaching.
If you can’t see it. Ok

anemona · 18/05/2021 19:39

@joanneg36

Yes your lack of partisanship really shines through on the thread.

Anyway, I've said it before on this thread, but this time I really am done. Best of luck to everyone else who is engaging here in good faith. I'll continue to flag and report the anti-semitic posts as they arise because I think it's important to do so.

If you genuinely have no interest in hearing from Jewish posters why they find the way you're engaging here offensive, then I think that's a real shame - because you are certainly doing no favours to the people whose rights you claim to be arguing for.

Thank you, joanneg36.

Agree with you that there have been some posters who are clearly not arguing in good faith, and who are only interested in demonising not in progressing towards peace.

But I have had some interesting discussions and thank you to those who have engaged constructively.

anemona · 18/05/2021 19:41

@DeepThinkingGirl

Corey Gil-Shuster has interesting videos on YouTube interviewing both Israelis and Palestinians about sensitive topics.

The “God gave us this land” is a pretty mainstream narrative amongst Israelis as well as is what Zionism was based on.

I’m not sure why anyone would consider it anti Semitic.

Not everyone uncomfortable to admit is antisemitic

No, it really isn't a mainstream view among Israelis at all. It's a mainstream view among settlers but they are hardly typical Israelis.

The average Israeli is not religious, so unlikely to base anything on religious grounds.

DeepThinkingGirl · 18/05/2021 19:42

Anyway, anyone interested in ensuring these debates could carry on with less offense taken on both sides are welcome to suggest talk guidelines for mumsnet to formulate

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/4241811-Palestine-and-Israel-threads-constantly-removed?msgid=107415865#107415865

I don’t think people should be constantly firing the word antisemitic without a real reason as that’s offensive

Frazzledfranny · 18/05/2021 19:43

[quote Blackberrycream]@Frazzledfranny
No not reaching.
If you can’t see it. Ok[/quote]
Every one thinks their god is the real one.

I think you read in to that post what you wanted to.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 18/05/2021 19:45

Allah and Jehovah are the same God!

StoneofDestiny · 18/05/2021 19:46

@Blackberrycream

It's your comprehension that's at fault - to reach that far you'd need 10 foot arms!

(@blackberry responds "help Mumsnet, she said I had 10 foot arms. Wait, no, she said all Jews had 10 foot arms........)

Seriously..............

Blackberrycream · 18/05/2021 19:48

Funny that you assume I’m Jewish.
I’m not

Frazzledfranny · 18/05/2021 19:52

@DeepThinkingGirl

Anyway, anyone interested in ensuring these debates could carry on with less offense taken on both sides are welcome to suggest talk guidelines for mumsnet to formulate

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/4241811-Palestine-and-Israel-threads-constantly-removed?msgid=107415865#107415865

I don’t think people should be constantly firing the word antisemitic without a real reason as that’s offensive

I think the problem is ( going off the link I was given before stating what was seen as antisemitic) the very nature of criticising the state of Israel is seen as anti Semitic.

I didn’t understand why this thread was being asked to be taken down and calls of antisemetic when I couldnt see any attacks on Jewish people or the religion. But now I understand. It’s also antisemitic ( to some people not all Jewish people feel like this) to criticise the state.

Which is actually really scary. On what grounds can a government be held to account when no debate can be ever had. Tbh I find it really unsettling.

StoneofDestiny · 18/05/2021 19:54

@Blackberrycream - I did not say that either, you really do have a problem with comprehension.
.............but you project everything said as a criticism of Jews, that's the point being made

StoneofDestiny · 18/05/2021 19:56

As of 30 January 2020, there are about 130 government-approved settlements, and 100 unofficial ones, which are home to around 400,000 Israelis in the West Bank, with an additional 200,000 Israelis residing in 12 neighborhoods in East Jerusalem

I'd hazard a strong guess these settlers think they are entitled to settle there because it's their chosen land. Least that is the impression I was strongly given when I visited and it's certainly what is being said in shed loads on line by many, and previous, and possibly current, Israeli leaders.

Blackberrycream · 18/05/2021 19:58

[quote StoneofDestiny]@Blackberrycream - I did not say that either, you really do have a problem with comprehension.
.............but you project everything said as a criticism of Jews, that's the point being made[/quote]
This is actually ridiculous
To quote you
‘ she said I had 10 ft arms, no wait she said all Jews had 10 ft arms’
My comprehension is fine, All being the key word.

joanneg36 · 18/05/2021 20:00

Oh FFS @Frazzledfranny, I keep saying I'm done and then the sheer insanity brings me back. Where in the IHRA definition of anti-semitism I sent you does it say you can't criticise the government of Israel. I am posting it here for transparency - please point me to where it says you can't criticise the actions of the Israeli govt?
__

Contemporary examples of antisemitism in public life, the media, schools, the workplace, and in the religious sphere could, taking into account the overall context, include, but are not limited to:

Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion.

Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.

Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews.

Denying the fact, scope, mechanisms (e.g. gas chambers) or intentionality of the genocide of the Jewish people at the hands of National Socialist Germany and its supporters and accomplices during World War II (the Holocaust).

Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust.

Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.

Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.

Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.

Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.

Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.

Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.
_

What it does say is anti-semitic, because it is is holding Jews collectively responsible for the actions of Israel - that is something we've seen a lot of on this thread, along with the point above (comparisons to the Nazis) and the one about applying double standards to Israel to that which you apply to any other state.

All clear now?

StoneofDestiny · 18/05/2021 20:00

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

iwantedfairies · 18/05/2021 20:02

Shalom

Jente · 18/05/2021 20:02

Israeli governments had policy to keep on building settlements that become "facts on the ground". And here we are.

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