Discussing Palestinian Oppression part 2

[Faffandahalf]

Just starting another thread as the other one is full.

Please keep talking about Palestinian occupation and oppression.

Please follow Palestinian support groups like Friends of Al Aqsa and Mohammed el Kurd (an amazing Sheikh Jarrah citizen) on Twitter and Insta to get info from the ground. This will take you to other sources of infor coming out of Palestine.

Please keep Palestine part of the conversation and on social media so it’s not forgotten about.

Supporting Palestine is not anti Semitic
Criticising Israel is not anti Semitic.

As an aside I have not once seen the previous thread in active after page 1.
So MN have let the thread stand after numerous complaints of censorship but still odd that it never came up as active.

@joanneg36

the reason I haven't suggested it is because amongst 'good-thinking' progressive types on mumsnet, there is only ever one acceptable form of prejudice, which is anti-semitism

I think that very unfair. I think Anti-Arab statements are accepted by many (and if you look at the Daily Mail - they can’t wait to call out anti-semitism at any given opportunity (because it fits their nasty right wing narrative I have no doubt. Not because they genuinely care about anti-Semitism)

If someone spoke about Black people the way some of the people on this thread are speaking about Jews, I'm fairly sure they'd be kicked off mumsnet for life.

Again - same applies to islamophobia. One poster whose comment was deleted but still
Posted prolifically on the thread said that all 1.5billion Muslims in the world supported Hamas. The prejudice has been demonstrated both ways.

I think “the left” is a lazy argument. I’m
Left of centre (just) but I despised Corbin and momentum. But politics today so determined to split everything these days into one or the other. Fuck that. I’m central - on some issues to the right, amd on some to the left. But I not “the left”. We are heading into even more dangerous Trumpian-inspired waters if we try to polarise everything.

@joanneg36 are you developing paranoia? I did not say YOU said these things, I'm not in a conversation with you alone. I was referring to the general principle that much offence can be taken by different faith, ethnic, cultural groups from things said by others.

In principle - any group that believes they are Gods appointed and destined to own, as a chosen people, a particular piece of our Earth might be offensive to some faith groups or those with no faiths.

It's that entitled belief that led to colonisation, 'white supremacy', the Crusades, various Holocausts, purges, 'manifest destiny' and a host of other obnoxious practices that were often fuelled by extreme fanaticism and belief systems.

I completely agree on the Daily Mail, so maybe it's just indicative of the circles I move in. I have never heard anyone I would describe as a friend of mine, or anyone in my industry (which is quite left-leaning) be openly Islamophobic. But almost as soon as Israel comes up, I hear a lot of anti-semitism. This may of course be that I'm more sensitive to it, I accept that but I do objectively believe that there has been far more anti-semitism on this thread than any other form of prejudice.

@joanneg36

I just don’t understand what ‘pro-Israeli’ means? I’m not being argumentative. I find it problematic because no-one ever says ‘pro-British’ or ‘pro-French’ or ‘pro-Egyptian’. It’s only ever used about Israel - and that is because Israel’s existence seems to be up for discussion. Which is anti-Semitic.

Oh, I am fairly sure it is. www.thefreedictionary.com/pro-British (pro-French is spelt Francophile) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Egypt ("pro-Egyptian riots broke out in Sudan")

Other examples are
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_pro-Arab_propaganda
www.skysports.com/football/news/11670/12307323/arsenal-speak-to-mohamed-elneny-over-wider-implications-of-pro-palestinian-social-media-post-amid-sponsor-concern
www.thefreedictionary.com/pro-German
www.thefreedictionary.com/pro-Soviet

@StoneofDestiny Nope, not developing paranoia but thanks for checking in!

Your second paragraph applies equally to Jews and Palestinians in this situation - that's exactly why the region is in the horrific state it's in. Yet you are for some reason able to only understand one side's point of view. Why is that?

'good-thinking' progressive types on mumsnet, there is only ever one acceptable form of prejudice, which is anti-semitism

Utter garbage and a very cheap jibe to try and shut down a thread.

Shut down a thread 😂 I have literally spent the best part of the last two days trying to converse in good faith to make people see that this is a complex issue with more than one point of view.

Your second paragraph applies equally to Jews and Palestinians in this situation - that's exactly why the region is in the horrific state it's in. Yet you are for some reason able to only understand one side's point of view. Why is that?

Not sure you are best placed to tell me what I understand 😂.
I posted quite early on that I was reasonably knowledgeable about Middle Eastern affairs - and was blinded by no ethnic, religious or cultural partisanship.

this is a complex issue with more than one point of view

On that we agree.

@joanneg36

Shut down a thread 😂 I have literally spent the best part of the last two days trying to converse in good faith to make people see that this is a complex issue with more than one point of view.

What makes you think you know better than the international community. What do you know that they don’t?

Shut down a thread 😂 I have literally spent the best part of the last two days trying to converse in good faith to make people see that this is a complex issue with more than one point of view.

👍

Yes your lack of partisanship really shines through on the thread.

Anyway, I've said it before on this thread, but this time I really am done. Best of luck to everyone else who is engaging here in good faith. I'll continue to flag and report the anti-semitic posts as they arise because I think it's important to do so.

If you genuinely have no interest in hearing from Jewish posters why they find the way you're engaging here offensive, then I think that's a real shame - because you are certainly doing no favours to the people whose rights you claim to be arguing for.

@joanneg36

I completely agree on the Daily Mail, so maybe it's just indicative of the circles I move in. I have never heard anyone I would describe as a friend of mine, or anyone in my industry (which is quite left-leaning) be openly Islamophobic. But almost as soon as Israel comes up, I hear a lot of anti-semitism. This may of course be that I'm more sensitive to it, I accept that but I do objectively believe that there has been far more anti-semitism on this thread than any other form of prejudice.

What do you define as anti-Semitic?

@frazzledfranny - I think I've posted it at least three times on this thread, but one more for the road before I go. This is the widely accepted definition of anti-semitism:

www.holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definitions-charters/working-definition-antisemitism

If you read it and absorb it properly, it will possibly make you understand how very offensive so much of this thread has been.

@StoneofDestiny

Jewish people are not a monolith and have a range of views

That is true, and many are appalled at the Right Wing government of Netanyahu and were on the streets protesting against it. Several Jewish sects even oppose the state of Israel.

What insults are lobbed at them I wonder by the pro Israeli Government supporters on here (anti Semitic?). Curious.

Who are the pro-Israeli government supporters on here, I wonder?

Can you name them? I haven't seen any. I've seen lots of people supporting Israel's right to exist, and concerned about Hamas' war crimes against Israeli civilians. But surely you're not saying that you conflate Israeli civilians and Netanyahu, are you? Surely not, not you.

I am glad you have finally recognised that there is an alternative to setting Israeli against Palestinian and noted that there have been numerous pro-peace rallies, involving both Israeli Jews and Israeli Arabs, over the last week, as I have posted about above several times.

I think that is the way forward.

But that’s base me around the denial of the Holocaust ( which absolutely no fucker on here has done) and basically says you can not criticise Israel unless your doing so to a similar country.

Fuck. By this standard the Israeli Government can never be held accountable. Wow.

Im so glad Jewish voices see the fault in this.

Thank you @joanneg36 for your contributions.
I have noticed quite open anti semitism for quite a few years now and I am ashamed to say but among my social circle, city based, multi cultural and left leaning. That’s for another thread.
@StoneofDestiny you have been anything but open to other viewpoints. Your last statements about Jewish biblical ideas clearly nail your colours to the mast. Not just Israel then. That’s why it’s ok not to like Jews. Nice to have it out there.

@Jente

It's always the same, everything the Palestinians do they deserve to die. Same lies have been told for years.

That is an absolutely horrific thing to say.

No-one on here has said anything remotely like that.

What kind of a sick mind do you have to suggest that posters are saying this??

StoneofDestiny I wonder which charities actually give the full aid to them. There was a massive drive a couple of years ago near where I used to live and the support was staggering. I’m sure it was for food parcels.

Your last statements about Jewish biblical ideas clearly nail your colours to the mast. Not just Israel then. That’s why it’s ok not to like Jews. Nice to have it out there

You really aren't too bright if you think I said that or believe that. Still, can't deal with stupid

@Domino20

The inflatable at the march was an Islamic prince dressed in traditional Emirati clothing with his own face on the inflatable. Suggesting that mocking someone from a culture that isn't Jewish is somehow antisemitic really seems like a reach.

So he has horns and red eyes and bloody hands and a hook nose in real life does he?

OK. Just coincidence.

@piddocktrumperiness

I hope you can see there some echoes or similarities however small. We are not so different

Thanks for the great posts.

No, we are not very different at all. We all, unfortunately, have shared experiences as refugees and of racist abuse and the fear that goes with that.

As I have said throughout, I do not think the argument is between Israelis and Palestinians, it is between the corrupt leaders.

And, looking at this thread, possibly between racists and normal people.

@StoneofDestiny

Your last statements about Jewish biblical ideas clearly nail your colours to the mast. Not just Israel then. That’s why it’s ok not to like Jews. Nice to have it out there

You really aren't too bright if you think I said that or believe that. Still, can't deal with stupid

claiming God gave one religious group (Jews) a superior claim to land on Earth over another religious group is offensive and discriminatory You were quite clear in your word choice.

@anemona It was In response to Xenia's post. It's not the first time I've heard this kind of rhetoric.