The song ‘WAP’ does not deserve the fawning plaudits? (NSFW)

[Redolent]

m.youtube.com/watch?v=hsm4poTWjMs

WAP by Cardi B and Megan Thee Stallion. Stands for Wet Ass Pussy. That’s all what the whole song is about. Consensus seems to be that’s it a great anthem about female sexual empowerment. The New York Times: “An event record that transcends the event itself.” The Los Angeles Times: “A savage, nasty, sex-positive triumph.” For the high-brow publication Pitchfork, Cardi/Megan ‘center themselves as women in order to freely celebrate their coveted power, sex appeal, and A1 WAP.’

Sample lyrics:

“ I wanna gag, I wanna choke/I want you to touch that little dangly thing that swing in the back of my throat.”

“ “Gobble me, swallow me/Drip down inside of me/Quick jump out ’fore you let it get inside of me,”

Rest here: genius.com/Cardi-b-wap-lyrics

——

To me think the crassness of the song is so boring. I’m not outraged or aghast. I just don’t think it’s sexy in the slightest (others clearly disagree). The song talks about pussies so much they may as well be rapping about a pair of shoes. But I cannot seriously accept that this is video and song are anthem of liberating empowerment, with its pole dancing, strip club visuals and sexual cliches. Listen to the song all you want but let’s pretend these are role models.

I swear some of these young’uns act like they’re the first humans to have ever fucked with all their edginess and coolness but newsflash, humans have been fucking in all types of ways since we became human. I’ve had sex with men, women, black white and Asian. Am I allowed in your cool club now or am I only allowed in if I pretend to like all this new stuff - enjoying suffocating on dicks and being beaten to a pulp whilst being given hardcore anal?

Oh, you called me a 'judgemental twat', boo hoo!

Erm, no. I was clarifying what I said in my earlier post.

Well that's embarrassing - I'm so rubbish at womaning that I've been relegated from "anti-feminist" to "man".

I don’t think that is a new concept that every generation thinks they have discovered sex

Our grannies were no doubt doing what many of us are some may have been more adventurous and some (I think quite a few) were held back on being as adventurous as they for fear of being judged and unwanted pregnancy

I’m sure I’m not the only one to have a cousin who’s father is not really his father and everyone knows but no one talks about it

Tell me these so called new sex acts have always been around

It’s documented in writing and drawings (lots of Japanese art has a particular name can’t remember but drawings of all sorts of sex acts)

Oh, have we got to the inevitable "must be a man" posts if a woman thinks differently or presumably not womanly enough?!
Also not a man FFS lol MN is so bloody predictable lol

Well that's embarrassing - I'm so rubbish at womaning that I've been relegated from "anti-feminist" to "man"

Same

I'd still love to know how it's feminism to tell other women that they must be men, or what is an acceptable level of womanning.
I mean, it's laughable really.

Thinking aloud, sorry - how far do we take this "thinking like a woman" train of thought?
(Whatever the hell that means)
What do we have to do to be a proper lady?
This "male gaze" - do other women expect us to cover up, be modest, put ourselves away?
It's a slippery slope when you start telling women what they should and shouldn't like, or that they're not capable of independent thought and must either be a man or been told that they like it, can't possibly like something of their own bat.

However, I’m not falling for this new shit many nefarious types are promoting where we are supposed to believe prostitution which is what these women are singing about (fucking in exchange for stuff) is empowering women, that hordes of women like todays version of ‘rough sex’ which apparently means being beaten to a pulp and suffocating on a man’s cock and if you don’t think these things are ok you are a ‘prude’ or discriminating. Fuck that shit.

This.

It seems that it doesn't matter how degrading, dangerous, damaging, risky, unpleasant something is, if someone somewhere claims that it is 'empowering to women' then it is apparently 'anti-feminist' to object. As you say: fuck that shit.

@KingFredsTache

However, I’m not falling for this new shit many nefarious types are promoting where we are supposed to believe prostitution which is what these women are singing about (fucking in exchange for stuff) is empowering women, that hordes of women like todays version of ‘rough sex’ which apparently means being beaten to a pulp and suffocating on a man’s cock and if you don’t think these things are ok you are a ‘prude’ or discriminating. Fuck that shit.

This.

It seems that it doesn't matter how degrading, dangerous, damaging, risky, unpleasant something is, if someone somewhere claims that it is 'empowering to women' then it is apparently 'anti-feminist' to object. As you say: fuck that shit.

You're (deliberately or inadvertently) switching the narrative.

No one is saying YOU MUST LIKE THESE THINGS. Simply, you must not tell other women they don't like these things when they've said clearly and proudly that they do. You must not tell other women they only like these things because they're being manipulated by the man but too thick to realise it. You must not tell women they are not feminist enough because they like them.

Absolutely your own sexual boundaries. Other women will do the same, and the beauty of human nature is, different people have different preferences.

@ShesMadeATwatOfMePam

You've got a problem if you think blowjobs and deep throat are the same thing.

If a woman's preference does happen to be having sex in the missionary position once a month, isn't it quite anti feminist of you to denigrate her choices? Why do you think it makes you better than her if you're getting spit roasted every night and she isn't? I thought everyone's sex life was their own business?

Who said this, though?

Everyone has said and said and said - it is about choice.

Don't want to get spit roasted, fan-bloody-tastic. That doesn't do it for me either. But if another woman tells me it turns her on that's none of my business. I certainly wouldn't assume to tell her she's being manipulated into performing degrading sexual acts by puppeteering men. So patronising.

This thread has got me thinking.

People have been speaking openly and with concern that the abundance and availability of extreme pornography is having a detrimental effect on boys and men. Pushing them to want and need more extreme acts, influencing them to coerce women and girls into more extreme acts.

But when people have said on this thread, that maybe, women suddenly shouting from the rafters that they like having cocks shoved down their throats and being choked and beaten - may have been influenced by male desire or porn, they are accused of patronising women and told women know what women want.

Taking away the femenist perspective and looking at it from a human behaviour perspective - do we not maybe think that both men and women have been influenced both directly and indirectly through porn. Can we not see the possibility that people are wanting to engage in more extreme acts then they would have in the past because porn and and overly sexualised culture has made people feel dissatisfied with regular sex. Why are we allowed to sit and critique male sexuality, but no one can question why swaths of women are suddenly asking to be beaten up during sex.

Fwiw, I have nothing against Cardi or Megan. But I think the lyrics of this song are more about shock factor and selling what they know will sell - sex. I don't think they are trying to empower anyone or be feminist icons. I think theyre just writing music they know will sell and get people talking. Bdsm is the current edgy thing and that's why that's the sex they talk about (or more specifically Megan talks about). They're not doing anything new and I think people are reading too much into it.

I'm glad they are able to write about what they want, do what they want and look/act as they want. But let's not hold it up as a femanist masterpiece. It's a trashy pop record designed to create publicity and record sales.

Sex is sex, people like different things. Let's not slut shame anyone. But at the same time, let's not create a culture where women are made to feel that they need to be sex dolls always up for it and up for anything.

*tbh I'm not sure what MN approved sex would be like, but something tells me that if my sex life was like that, I too would prefer a book and a cuppa

I think it is probably some sort of unsponatenous, sterile, romance-heavy missionary position sex and the man must jump through a thousand hoops to prove he is a feminist.*

My post was referring to these two.

@Alabamawhirly1
The availability of porn has undoubtedly altered the sex people have. Part of that, in my view, is that it has taught women that they can do more than lie there while man gets his rocks off. It's allowed women to explore what might also turn her on.

I think women who don't enjoy any of the acts we've talked about here (which is totally fine and certainly does not mean they're prudes or have dull sex lives) don't really understand it.

In my experience, it's absolutely not about being beaten up. It's not about being hurt at all. I would never allow myself to be hurt during a sexual encounter. But it's subjective isn't it. Some women love nipple clamps, that to me sounds painful.

Choking isn't being aggressively throttled. Hair pulling isn't aggressive yanking. Deepthroating isn't block your airways and make you feel like you're struggling to breathe.

All of these things can (and for many women, do) heighten a sexual experience. They should always be indulged in between consenting, trusting adults.

I certainly take your point about too much porn skewing minds. Really violent porn. It's a problem and it can be dangerous. However, I can tell you that is very separate from what is being lightheartedly referenced in WAP.

@Quaagars

Thinking aloud, sorry - how far do we take this "thinking like a woman" train of thought? (Whatever the hell that means) What do we have to do to be a proper lady? This "male gaze" - do other women expect us to cover up, be modest, put ourselves away? It's a slippery slope when you start telling women what they should and shouldn't like, or that they're not capable of independent thought and must either be a man or been told that they like it, can't possibly like something of their own bat.

Well, you could turn that question on its head I guess - is nothing out of bounds then if somewhere a woman says that she likes it or finds it empowering?

If a woman says that she loves having the shit beat out of her during sex, if a woman says that she loves to be throttled to within an inch of her life, do we all have to say 'yeah, you go girl, female empowerment'?! Is anything else 'judgemental'? Are we not allowed to say 'hang on, I'm not sure about that'? Is that being a 'judgemental twat'?

The slippery slope thing works both ways - and we are already at a place where singing about bloody noses, bruises on knees, and choking and gagging on penises is apparently 'female empowerment'. Where is the line into 'unacceptable'? Is there one, if someone, somewhere thinks that it's empowering and 'female choice'?

But when people have said on this thread, that maybe, women suddenly shouting from the rafters that they like having cocks shoved down their throats and being choked and beaten - may have been influenced by male desire or porn, they are accused of patronising women and told women know what women want

If this had been the measured way in which those opinions had been expressed, this would likely have been a very different thread.

There is a huge difference between (1) wondering whether a woman's sexual preferences might be influenced by the patriarchy or porn culture and querying how helpful/hurtful the commercial publication of art such as this is to society as a whole and (2) dismissing that specific woman's voice entirely on the assumption that there's no way she could possibly hold the views she has unless she were under duress, and dismissing PPs' defence of that woman's right to express her own opinion on the assumption those posters must (a) agree with the woman's opinion (b) have nefarious intentions and/or (c) be men.

@Alabamawhirly1

I think this is a worthwhile discussion but unfortunately instead of being objective, people just find it too hard not to share an opinion that is demeaning, belittling and slut shaming.

You are going to find it very hard to separate how people have been influenced vs what they actually do genuinely enjoy

What you are missing from this picture when people talk about empowerment, they are talking about women owning their own sexuality. Women who feel free to explore what they like and verbalise it. The more and more everyone links it back to porn and the Male gaze all you are doing is reinforcing that women have no autonomy over their sex. Perhaps the shocking shock value is so shocking because we don’t really listen to women when they have been trying to say this in a number of different ways. Perhaps subtlety doesn’t work anymore

Well, at least we now know what it takes to center ourselves as women, as opposed to womxn, people who have periods or people who have a cervix which is how we are normally referred to by the ‘progressive’ media nowadays.

I think that sort of says it all.

The availability of porn has undoubtedly altered the sex people have. Part of that, in my view, is that it has taught women that they can do more than lie there while man gets his rocks off. It's allowed women to explore what might also turn her on

Do you honestly think that before the unfettered availability of hardcore porn on the Internet, women just used to 'lie there while a man gets his rocks off'? That women never got any pleasure from sex until the last few years?

By the way 'porn' in some form, has been around for literally thousands of years.

13 year old boys seeing women being violently penetrated in all 3 orifices whilst being smacked and spat on, on their phones, and thinking that's 'normal sex' and going on to expect that in their sexual encounters - yes, that's probably a new phonemenon.

Watched the video. I'd seen Lena Dunham's awkward gyrating on IG then this thread, so I was curious. Quite apart from what it thinks it's meant to be achieving, it's just utter shite. And the most unerotic song/music video I have ever heard/watched. The macaroni reference left me feeling squeamish. And let's not even get started on the abundance of tits, snakes and PVC shudder.

Do people really, really seriously like it or is it a case of the Emperor's new clothes and we're all just pretending?? God I feel old. Not necessarily a bad thing.

@KingFredsTache

Might help to read the whole of my post. In it, I clearly said porn has H E L P E D women explore their sexuality. Not that, pre widely available porn, women sat around looking at their vag wondering what it was there for. But porn has helped broaden horizons and explore different sexual experiences. Speaking from experience here.

In my post I also said that violent porn, and too much of it, is also having a detrimental impact on young boys. I think there is some vile and degrading porn out there.

But you are conflating two issues.

If women tell you they find something arousing, it is not up to you to tell them they don't / shouldn't. Whole swathes of women.

Also, please note the massive market for female dominatrixes. In porn, in sex work, and dress-up materials for at-home iterations. Your DH might not be into that, but he doesn't speak for all men anymore than you speak for all women.

I think women who don't enjoy any of the acts we've talked about here (which is totally fine and certainly does not mean they're prudes or have dull sex lives) don't really understand it

So the women who don't like it are too stupid to understand it. That's so much better than, the women who do like it are too stupid to understand it.

The question wasn't 'is it possible to enjoy deep-throat' or 'what are women allowed to enjoy' it was 'is this song enpowering?'
Not do I see how, 'I don't find that particular song empowering' translates to 'women shouldn't talk about or enjoy sex'

No if you don’t understand it that doesn’t make you anything, it just is the way it is. Surely we can’t all relate to everything in the entire world
You just don’t have to be demeaning and belittling to anyone if you don’t understand something.

You just don’t have to be demeaning and belittling to anyone if you don’t understand something.

If that's to me, please tell me whom I am demeaning and belittling?

No it wasn’t to you sorry. There is so much demeaning language on this thread was just my point, and a hell of a lot of slut shaming. But it is ok to not understand or get something

Saw that WAP was the second fastest selling download in one week of all time? Behind Adele. Broken a load of record in the music industry.