The song ‘WAP’ does not deserve the fawning plaudits? (NSFW)

[Redolent]

m.youtube.com/watch?v=hsm4poTWjMs

WAP by Cardi B and Megan Thee Stallion. Stands for Wet Ass Pussy. That’s all what the whole song is about. Consensus seems to be that’s it a great anthem about female sexual empowerment. The New York Times: “An event record that transcends the event itself.” The Los Angeles Times: “A savage, nasty, sex-positive triumph.” For the high-brow publication Pitchfork, Cardi/Megan ‘center themselves as women in order to freely celebrate their coveted power, sex appeal, and A1 WAP.’

Sample lyrics:

“ I wanna gag, I wanna choke/I want you to touch that little dangly thing that swing in the back of my throat.”

“ “Gobble me, swallow me/Drip down inside of me/Quick jump out ’fore you let it get inside of me,”

Rest here: genius.com/Cardi-b-wap-lyrics

——

To me think the crassness of the song is so boring. I’m not outraged or aghast. I just don’t think it’s sexy in the slightest (others clearly disagree). The song talks about pussies so much they may as well be rapping about a pair of shoes. But I cannot seriously accept that this is video and song are anthem of liberating empowerment, with its pole dancing, strip club visuals and sexual cliches. Listen to the song all you want but let’s pretend these are role models.

Except many have, or a few have said it many times... prude, pearl clutching etc etc.

I used clutching pearls (which is exactly the same as pearl clutching btw) meaning people are behaving as if something is shocking when it's really not. (The cook & clean and the macaroni example).

a) nobody who likes the song comes back and discusses that - the commodification of sex, the sex fgor sale angle. They just focus on the kinds of sex and some comparisons with other women or men on nakedness or somesuch.

I actually did reply to the comments about that upthread. I don't believe it is about the commodification of sex or sex being for sale.

Ask for a car while you ride that dick (While you ride that dick)
You really ain't never gotta fuck him for a thang (Yeah)
He already made his mind up 'fore he came (Ayy, ah)

It's about her pussy being so good that he'll say yes to whatever she wants just to have it.

People disagreed but that's cool. That's the beauty of opinions I guess.

My nanny’s generation couldn’t even admit openly they enjoyed sex. Religion (especially Christianity) has had such an influence that women are seen as being good or whores

I think it's also important not to underestimate the profound influence cultural background plays for generations to come, even if the religion is rejected or religious teachings become more progressive, etc.

Many people's family/community cultural influences (whether religious or not) are so deeply entrenched with their own world view and sense of self that it's inevitable that many will carry internalised misogyny for generations even after the conscious rejection of those values.

For the PP who said you don't hear about this sort of thing in the 1920s... have you not heard of Lucille Bogan!?

@CuriousaboutSamphire prude / pearl clutched etc is for those that feel so disgusted by a women enjoying different sex from them, that they feel the need to censor such women from open discussion.

Show me where one single person on here has said you're a prude if you don't enjoy it. You're not reading things in context.

If the song doesn't empower you, that's fine. If the sex discussed doesn't interest you, that's fine. Just like the alternative is fine.

@ShesMadeATwatOfMePam

Choking in this context means deepthroating. Seems like many on here are claiming faux outrage without even listening to the song.

I've listened to it and I've read the lyrics. I was responding to someone who seemed to think choking generally was linked to blowjobs.

I am not outraged by the song at all. Not everyone who disagrees with you on Mumsnet is displaying faux outrage. Sometimes we are just sharing our opinions in a perfectly calm way. On the contrary there's a lot of outrage against people who don't think this kind of music or video is empowering, which i don't particularly. It's still portraying sex as a commodity and i don't think that sex work is empowering either.

Ok enlighten me. Show me an account written by a woman before the last 100 years where she reports that she actively enjoys a good rough deepthroat/facefuck, dp and being choked.

I'm absolutely not interested in what women 100 years ago were or were not allowed to say.

I'm telling you, just as many others on this thread have, and just as Cardi b does in the song you've so closely listened to, that I enjoy a wide range of sexual experiences with my loving partner who I trust.

I'm not being manipulated into thinking it. The accessibility of porn has allowed me to explore my own sexuality and sexual desires.

I know what I like, and I will not be told by other women that my sexual preferences are not sufficiently feminist.

I know what I like, and I will not be told by other women that my sexual preferences are not sufficiently feminist.

Well said, and same

I know what is the most insulting - the inference that women can't think for themselves, they only think they like something as they've been brainwashed to think that they do.
Which is just such crap, either women are free thinkers, individual beings or they're not.
How that's feminism to think women don't have a mind of their own is beyond me.

The thing is, you can like whatever you want, no one's stopping you.

I like make up. However me liking it does not mean it is a feminist choice to wear it.

I like high street fashion. However me liking it does not mean that the textiles industry is not exploitative and environmentally disastrous.

Just because you like something doesn't mean that it isn't problematic when viewed in the wider context. These things are nuanced.

@AllTheFields

The thing is, you can like whatever you want, no one's stopping you.

I like make up. However me liking it does not mean it is a feminist choice to wear it.

I like high street fashion. However me liking it does not mean that the textiles industry is not exploitative and environmentally disastrous.

Just because you like something doesn't mean that it isn't problematic when viewed in the wider context. These things are nuanced.

What even is this post... what is "nuanced" about exploitation in the textiles industry? It's just wrong.

What's more wrong to me is the use of that as an illustration to explain people's similar sexual choices coincidentally being amplified by a couple of rappers.

It's not even the same thing. Cardi and Megan aren't being exploited. People can listen to their music and enjoy it while not sharing the same sexual preferences (and indeed some have said this on this thread).

What even is this post... what is "nuanced" about exploitation in the textiles industry? It's just wrong.

Well actually there is plenty of nuance - is everyone who shops at Primark a disgusting person who doesn't give a shit about exploitation? Or do some of them shop there because they can't afford to make ethical choices?

Cardi and Megan aren't being exploited. People can listen to their music and enjoy it while not sharing the same sexual preferences (and indeed some have said this on this thread).

This is what I mean. Your view is overly simplistc. They may not be being exploited. But I don't think normalisation of the kinds of things they're singing about is anything to celebrate from a feminist perspective.

The thing is, you can like whatever you want, no one's stopping you

Too right, I'll do what I like.
How is it feminist to tell others that they are brainwashed into thinking that they like something though? That they didn't think it for themselves? We either have our own thoughts, are individual beings or we're not.

I like make up. However me liking it does not mean it is a feminist choice to wear it
To me, feminist is knowing you like make up and doing it FOR YOU.
It must be exhausting going round thinking that you can't like something, as it's a man's choice, a man's world, that everything you do is for a man.
Surely it's much more liberating being free to be YOU?
Seriously, other women judging and patronising other women for their actions is just as big a problem.

To me, feminist is knowing you like make up and doing it FOR YOU.

Well I do like make up, and I do do it for me (my husband certainly doesn't give a shit whether I wear it or not!), but do you think it would even exist if beauty standards were a thing? Why don't men wear it?

It must be exhausting going round thinking that you can't like something, as it's a man's choice, a man's world, that everything you do is for a man.

That really isn't how I live my life. I'm simply aware that we don't make choices in a vacuum and I don't think it's a bad thing to be aware that certain choices I make are not necessarily feminist ones just because I enjoy them.

Surely it's much more liberating being free to be YOU?

See above point.

Seriously, other women judging and patronising other women for their actions is just as big a problem.

Haven't judged anyone, I do several things on a daily basis that I don't think ring particularly true with feminism. I daresay we all do. Because that is the society we're raised in.

if beauty standards WEREN'T a thing, that should say!

tbh I'm not sure what MN approved sex would be like, but something tells me that if my sex life was like that, I too would prefer a book and a cuppa Why is that kind of comment deemed any less judgemental or less unnecessary than the ones who don't like this particular track, who use other derogatory terms?

It is judging women on their sexual preferences just as much. It is ridiculing such choices. Seems a tad hypocritical to me!

And still nobody has commented on the heart of the song - the exchange of sex for stuff!

I don’t really think that empowerment and feminism are the same thing. Empowerment is more individualistic and concerned with your feelings about yourself. Whereas feminism, at least imo is about dismantling the systems that keep women from getting power.

Cardi and Megan’s song is empowering for them and some other women. I think regardless of the descriptions of deep throat, liking pain and getting money/favours (which are not things that I personally enjoy) that it’s still a fantastic celebration of female genitals and female pleasure. Others might think it’s a load of shit.

That’s the thing about art it can be interpreted in so many different ways.

Someone up thread said that the problem with empowerment feminism is that it looks suspiciously like do whatever men want and call it empowering.

The thing is a lot of posters on this thread have said things that sound suspiciously like dress modestly, be ashamed of your private parts and call it self-respect.

There’s a happy medium somewhere I’m sure.

I know what I like, and I will not be told by other women that my sexual preferences are not sufficiently feminist.

Good for you. I didn't tell you that, but you crack on.

Ok enlighten me. Show me an account written by a woman before the last 100 years where she reports that she actively enjoys a good rough deepthroat/facefuck, dp and being choked.

How will that help?

If a woman enjoyed the sex acts described in WAP in 1870, does that validate the notion that people can have different sexual preferences in your eyes?

When it comes to how women view sex, you can ask a million different women and get a million different answers. One woman's account of their own personal preferences doesn't invalidate another's.

Just because you don't personally relate to the sex described in WAP, it doesn't mean the artists who made it are under duress.

Canvassing the subjective opinions of women through the ages is only going to tell you what those women thought. There's no one right answer to what people should enjoy.

And still nobody has commented on the heart of the song - the exchange of sex for stuff!

That’s not the heart of the song imo. As a pp said I interpret as the man is so desperate for her wet ass pussy that he’ll give her whatever she wants, not that she wouldn’t be sleeping with him if he wasn’t giving her stuff. Kind off like when male rappers talking about women queuing up to give them blow jobs.

I didn't tell you that, but you crack on

Maybe you didn't personally, but it's definitely true of quite a few posters on this thread.

Kind off like when male rappers talking about women queuing up to give them blow jobs.

So sexist nonsense, then.

I'm absolutely not interested in what women 100 years ago were or were not allowed to say.

This is pretty arrogant when you follow it up with a load of unnecessary detail about your own sex life. I'm absolutely not interested in your sex life. I couldn't give less of a shit what you do in bed. Shit in the bed if you want. I really don't care.

I am interested in whether women 100 years ago really and truly enjoyed the kind of sex acts that are so apparently widespread now and that women are so so keen on, which focus mainly on pleasure for the bloke or whether women have always secretly been into choking on dicks.

No, bragging about yourself.

@AllTheFields

What even is this post... what is "nuanced" about exploitation in the textiles industry? It's just wrong.

Well actually there is plenty of nuance - is everyone who shops at Primark a disgusting person who doesn't give a shit about exploitation? Or do some of them shop there because they can't afford to make ethical choices?

Cardi and Megan aren't being exploited. People can listen to their music and enjoy it while not sharing the same sexual preferences (and indeed some have said this on this thread).

This is what I mean. Your view is overly simplistc. They may not be being exploited. But I don't think normalisation of the kinds of things they're singing about is anything to celebrate from a feminist perspective.

I don't think normalisation of the kinds of things they're singing about is anything to celebrate from a feminist perspective.

And who is the arbiter of feminism? Surely (and I need to duck out before things are justifiably thrown at me for discussing feminism definitions as a man) feminism in its broadest terms is advocating gender equality.

And if Cardi B and Megan are now talking about sexual mores on equal and free terms, feeling empowered to share their viewpoint, then why is this not "anything to celebrate" - why?

I presume it's because the content doesn't meet your own lens through which you view feminism.

That's the crux of all these cross-purpose arguments flying around on here at a rate of knots, isn't it?

Certain Mumsnetters (of which large swathes are white, middle aged, middle class) are disgusted by the words and topics of the song. So they say "it's not feminism" to downgrade it.

Perhaps feminism is defined by the emancipated? And if you knew anything about hip-hop culture, about women's historical status within it, perhaps you would be viewing from a different lens entirely.

@ShesMadeATwatOfMePam you want accounts of women 100 years ago and I posted Lucille Bogan who was releasing the same sort of music as this thread details back in 1920 and an example of one of her songs detailing her love of wild sex including urination and unprotected sex passing the clap around her multiple partners, some of whom paid her. She loved it. Gagging for it.. some may say

I like make up. However me liking it does not mean it is a feminist choice to wear it.

But do you not think in some ways it's all just a MASSIVE big circle-punch. (Like a circle-jerk except we're not jerking each other off we're doing precisely the opposite).

I'll use make up but this could just as easily be about any of the examples on this thread or Cardi's song.

"Women who wear make up are brainwashed into thinking they have to just to please men" said women.

Women who like wearing makeup, either for themselves or because they DO want to appear more desirable to men, "Well I like make up and I'll continue to do so."

Women, "You're not womaning correctly. Shame shame shame."

Women who like wearing makeup. "Fuck the feminists. I'm gonna wear my make up loud and proud and stick two fingers up to anyone who's trying to control me"

"You're just giving men what they wanted anyway. You're so stupid you can't even see it."

Now it HAS been turned into female empowerment. It's basically feminism against the feminist version of the patriarchy.

tyrinn

I see your point but I don't agree.

I don't think I was telling anyone that they were "doing feminism wrong" - for one thing I was talking about myself. I don't think women have to subscribe to specific set of values or actions to be worthy feminists, I simply think it's important to think about our actions and where they come from.

Changing your surname after marriage is a good example actually. Changing your name to take your husband's name comes from a time when marriage meant ownership of a woman. So can you merrily ignore that and say well it doesn't matter now because it was my choice to take it? If it really didn't matter then as many men would take their wives surname as women take their husbands.