The song ‘WAP’ does not deserve the fawning plaudits? (NSFW)

[Redolent]

m.youtube.com/watch?v=hsm4poTWjMs

WAP by Cardi B and Megan Thee Stallion. Stands for Wet Ass Pussy. That’s all what the whole song is about. Consensus seems to be that’s it a great anthem about female sexual empowerment. The New York Times: “An event record that transcends the event itself.” The Los Angeles Times: “A savage, nasty, sex-positive triumph.” For the high-brow publication Pitchfork, Cardi/Megan ‘center themselves as women in order to freely celebrate their coveted power, sex appeal, and A1 WAP.’

Sample lyrics:

“ I wanna gag, I wanna choke/I want you to touch that little dangly thing that swing in the back of my throat.”

“ “Gobble me, swallow me/Drip down inside of me/Quick jump out ’fore you let it get inside of me,”

Rest here: genius.com/Cardi-b-wap-lyrics

——

To me think the crassness of the song is so boring. I’m not outraged or aghast. I just don’t think it’s sexy in the slightest (others clearly disagree). The song talks about pussies so much they may as well be rapping about a pair of shoes. But I cannot seriously accept that this is video and song are anthem of liberating empowerment, with its pole dancing, strip club visuals and sexual cliches. Listen to the song all you want but let’s pretend these are role models.

Wasn’t there a bit that said ‘I don’t cook, I don’t clean’

That was a snap to NM, she sings in one hers yes I do the cooking, yes I do the cleaning.

Also wish people would stop pitting black female rappers against each other

Women in general are pitted against each other all of the damn time, it's wrong, but sadly it's not unique to this example.

I think it's grim AF. These women are doing the rest of us no favours. This is for the male gaze, there's nothing feminist about it.

Urgh. I would like women to talk about how they actually like to have sex rather than pandering to the porn version of what they thing they are supposed to like.

I’d like to see a form of sexiness not linked to being able to wobble your bum at someone and do deep throat.

True women’s Lib is being able to openly discuss that it’s okay not to turned on by anal, being spat at and being made to gag.

Lesson 1 Sex Ed: It’s okay to tell him that you hate what he’s doing and how to do it better.

Lesson 2: it’s okay to enjoy sex just make sure you are actually enjoying it. One night stands when you are both pissed are actually the least enjoyable thing ever. Go home and get a good nights sleep instead.

• Wasn’t there a bit that said ‘I don’t cook, I don’t clean’

That was a snap to NM, she sings in one hers yes I do the cooking, yes I do the cleaning.

Yep. The macaroni references also went completely over their head too.

Like I said earlier this is genuinely the equivalent of being mansplained to. It's a bunch of women patronising women about something that's completely going over their heads.

Oh, and also a lot of "women can't possibly like that because I don't like that".

It's rank.
It's designed to cause all that it has caused by a woman who lacks even the most basic of talents and gets by on shaking her near naked self around whilst "rapping" badly. It also why she put Kylie Jenner in the video knowing it would cause even more drama.
But all the while people rise to it, she will get paid. My view is we should treat it with the reaction of total ignorance and she will be dropped swiftly.
She's basically on a par with Amber Rose and Black Chyna. Known for nothing more than over inflated body parts.

Urgh. I would like women to talk about how they actually like to have sex rather than pandering to the porn version of what they thing they are supposed to like.

Maybe you could start by reading the thread where more than a few women talked about how they like to have sex and were shot down because men like it that way too, and men and women can't possibly like the same things.

I’d like to see a form of sexiness not linked to being able to wobble your bum at someone and do deep throat.

Seriously hundreds of female singers don't wobble their bums. Hundreds of female actresses don't wobble their bums. Do you wobble your bum? I'm guessing not since you seem to be against it, so why not look in the mirror and gaze at your own form of sexiness? You are actually allowed to express your sexuality however you want to with anyone you want to (provided it's within the bounds of the law). Nobody is stopping you. In fact, read the thread and you'll see countless posts arguing that women SHOULD be allowed to express sexuality however they choose.

True women’s Lib is being able to openly discuss that it’s okay not to turned on by anal, being spat at and being made to gag.

True women's Lib is all that, and that it's okay to be turned on by anal and anything else that turns them on (provided it's legal and consensual). It's okay to fantasise about whatever you want to.

Lesson 1 Sex Ed: It’s okay to tell him that you hate what he’s doing and how to do it better.

Agreed. Provided we're talking to 13 year olds and not the grown ass women on Mumsnet.

Lesson 2: it’s okay to enjoy sex just make sure you are actually enjoying it. One night stands when you are both pissed are actually the least enjoyable thing ever. Go home and get a good nights sleep instead.

Patronising AF. Had many an amazing drunken one night stand in my youth. The least enjoyable thing ever is stepping on lego and scalding your tongue. (Did you see what I did there, it's that personal thing called an opinion).

I think this whole thread is full of two sets of people who are both equally misguided. In the one camp you have people thinking these women are disgusting, ignorant and playing into male fantasies. On the other hand you have people who think these women are deliberate zeitgeist creators who want to start a brand new wave of feminist commentary

There are other voices on this thread too.

There are several people on this thread (myself included) who may or may not feel particularly strongly about Cardi B et al as artists but who take umbrage at seeing a woman being torn down for not conforming to gender stereotypes, feminist behaviour expectations, racial stereotypes, womanly shame restrictions, etc.

Personally, I'm finding the strawmanning on this thread disappointing and anti-feminist - these artists have been ascribed all these lofty female empowerment objectives by PPs, only for those posters to evaluate the track based on these self-imposed standards and triumphantly declare that these women failed and are doing life all wrong, apparently in the name of feminism.

Alternatively there are some, like me, who just think it isn't empowering, it isn't new, nor groundbreaking, it's just today's version of sex sells.

Some of us just like the song and similar and aren't getting our wet knickers in a twist about it because we aren't the serial offended who are looking for a narrative which isn't there.

I think if you're looking to over analyse these things then Tupac ft Mya - Fair Xchange (Remix) is an interesting place to start.

Male empowerment = choice
Female empowerment = choice

And yet, 'empowered' males never choose to sing about unpleasant and risky sex acts being done to them? They very rarely choose to take their clothes off for money? They hardly ever choose to sell their body as a commodity?

No, those 'empowering choices' are only ever really reserved for women. If they were truly empowering then men would be doing them as well.

LonginesPrime I agree

There seems to be only one way for women to feel empowered and many on MN know exactly what it is

Regardless of the women in question ideas on what makes them feel empowered

And yet, 'empowered' males never choose to sing about unpleasant and risky sex acts being done to them? They very rarely choose to take their clothes off for money? They hardly ever choose to sell their body as a commodity?

You're like a one track record. Why do I care what men choose or choose not to do? Every argument you make seems to circle back to what men like and what men choose to do. As if that's the most important thing.

"Unpleasant" is completely subjective. A man singing the lyrics I'll worship like a dog at the shrine of your lies, I'll tell you my sins and you can sharpen your knife. Sounds completely unpleasant to me because I find anything to do with male submission unpleasant. Personally. But whatever floats their boat as long as they're happy.

"Risky" again, you've just decided it's risky because it fits your own narrative. Risk is a scale. I've never felt at risk with my husband in my own bedroom.

They very rarely choose to take off their clothes for money what a load of shite. Do you not watch porn? Never heard of a male stripper at a hen do? A naked butler? Magic Mike? Dreamboys? I can pretty much guarantee that if more women were willing to pay to watch men take their clothes off, they'd be filling that demand.

They hardly ever choose to sell their body. 20% of sex workers are male. How is that "hardly ever"?? And again, I'd imagine that the only reason that isn't higher is because their isn't enough custom for it.

Men take their clothes off all the time to make money. Peter Andre was particularly famous for this. I grew up with Smash Hits and it was absolutely full of male members of cast of Home and Away, Adam Rickett and boybands etc all on a beach with sandy torsos looking sexy. Take that rolled around in Jelly dressed in PVC in a video. Adam Levine is almost always topless. Jason Derulo does a lot of sexy work for himself with wet T-shirt’s in videos and showing his body off

There seems to be some parallel universe where people are absolutely sure that these things don’t happen and haven’t happened, when many people come along and tell you that this happens all the time, you ignore them!

Let’s not forget Zac Efron. The poster boy of hot ripped oily muscles

And Dwayne Johnson! Often topless and rippling

But these men are ok for your kids to watch yes? They sing and dance too but that’s ok because they aren’t disgusting!

So none of your kids have watched The Greatest Showman even though ZE has played multiple over sexed characters

FGS

Absolutely no men taking their clothes off for money here either....

@KingFredsTache

Male empowerment = choice Female empowerment = choice

And yet, 'empowered' males never choose to sing about unpleasant and risky sex acts being done to them? They very rarely choose to take their clothes off for money? They hardly ever choose to sell their body as a commodity?

No, those 'empowering choices' are only ever really reserved for women. If they were truly empowering then men would be doing them as well.

"Unpleasant sex acts"? Unpleasant for whom?

Cardi, Megan and many on this thread have said these acts turn them on. If you find them unpleasant, please never let anyone manipulate you into partaking. But short of your direct involvement, the sexual proclivity of consenting adults is none of your business.

I find the MN trope of freaking out at DH for watching porn, and viewing sex as a chore to be pretty unpleasant. That's the beauty of choice. What's unpleasant to some is pleasant to others.

Stop telling women what they do and do not find pleasant. You're not the arbiter of good sex.

To those who disapprove of the song, what to you defines female sexual empowerment?

And when was the last time you heard Dewayne Johnson (who let's not forget is always the 'hero' of any film he is in by the way) waxing lyrical about how 'empowered' taking his clothes off makes him feel? Peter Andre? Channing Tatum?

Choking is a risky act by the way, whether you like it or not. It can and does kill (although again, it's only ever women that seem to die in these 'but it's not my fault, she's liked it rough your honour' situations).

And I really don't give a fuck if I 'sound like a broken record' to you, I could say the same about you 🤷‍♀️ It is relevant to discuss what is expected of women compared to men.

It's a reach attempting to compare the comparitavely few men who take their tops off. Not many get down to their boxers in music videos, and male exploitation and being reduced to a pair of tits isn't the same historically. That said, no issue with what women choose to wear either, but let's not pretend it's the same thing.

Dwayne Johnson is the absolute epitome of male sexuality, strength and power. He was a wrestler! Of course he is empowered - he’s the highest grossing actor in the world and no, it isn’t just his beige matter that got him there. It’s also his good looks, his charisma, his body, his sexuality. Jumanji references his muscles over and over. He hasn’t found the cure for cancer any more than Megan and Cardi have or ever will do.

It’s ok - Dwayne is Dwayne. He’s doing well for himself which is great. But why is it ok for him to use those attributes to entertain people, and not a female black woman? The numbers speak for themselves - WAP is hugely popular, people like it.

Cardi is talking about gagging on dick in my opinion, not being choked with hands round her neck. She’s talking about hardcore oral in a consensual oral.

I don't wanna spit, I wanna gulp
I wanna gag, I wanna choke
I want you to touch that lil' dangly thing that swing in the back of my throat

Oral. Not being choked by hands. Deep throat.

Choking is a risky act by the way, whether you like it or not. It can and does kill (although again, it's only ever women that seem to die in these 'but it's not my fault, she's liked it rough your honour' situations).

It can and does kill if there is intent. If a man wants to kill you he'll find a way to kill you, wether that's with a kitchen knife or a choking on a cock.

And if your point is that no women should ever partake in / enjoy a deepthroat because some killers choose to use that as their defence, then you're exactly the same as the "she was wearing a skirt so she was asking for it" lot. I'm not responsible for the fact a small minority of men choose to kill women and use that as a defence. The male killer is responsible for killing.

Or is everything still the fault of sexually promiscuous women?

It is relevant to discuss what is expected of women compared to men.

How is it relevant to discuss what is expected of women compared to men? Whose expectations?

You think Cardi released the song because men expected her to? I don't think Cardi really cares about men's expectations of her, if I was Cardi I'd be far more concerned with women's expectations - as this thread proves.

We already had a poster rubbing her hands with glee that her two teenage daughters were slut-shaming her.

We had a poster pissed off that she hadn't represented hairy pussies and wobbly bits (Cardi was too slim for her, yet her ass was too big for the next poster).

We've had multiple people claim she really isn't that clever while simultaneously failing to understand most of the references in the song.

The fact is Cardi doesn't meet the expectations of women. Why you keep bringing men into this debate I have no idea.

Correction: "Mumsnet" expectations of women. The song / video is actually very popular outside of this little parallel universe filled with clutching pearls.

So true tyrinn. The problem is the London middle-class chatteri dictate the agenda of what the majority should be allowed to think. That's why we are where we are...

@spandexonmars

To those who disapprove of the song, what to you defines female sexual empowerment?

Informed consent. That’s all. Any piece of art relishing in specific sex acts, or presenting a particular sexual disposition, is likely to be empowering for its creators and a subset of women, no more or less. We don’t ALL have to embrace it as empowering, as so many enlightened media outlets have been insisting. The whole premise of this thread, for me anyway: