The song ‘WAP’ does not deserve the fawning plaudits? (NSFW)

[Redolent]

m.youtube.com/watch?v=hsm4poTWjMs

WAP by Cardi B and Megan Thee Stallion. Stands for Wet Ass Pussy. That’s all what the whole song is about. Consensus seems to be that’s it a great anthem about female sexual empowerment. The New York Times: “An event record that transcends the event itself.” The Los Angeles Times: “A savage, nasty, sex-positive triumph.” For the high-brow publication Pitchfork, Cardi/Megan ‘center themselves as women in order to freely celebrate their coveted power, sex appeal, and A1 WAP.’

Sample lyrics:

“ I wanna gag, I wanna choke/I want you to touch that little dangly thing that swing in the back of my throat.”

“ “Gobble me, swallow me/Drip down inside of me/Quick jump out ’fore you let it get inside of me,”

Rest here: genius.com/Cardi-b-wap-lyrics

——

To me think the crassness of the song is so boring. I’m not outraged or aghast. I just don’t think it’s sexy in the slightest (others clearly disagree). The song talks about pussies so much they may as well be rapping about a pair of shoes. But I cannot seriously accept that this is video and song are anthem of liberating empowerment, with its pole dancing, strip club visuals and sexual cliches. Listen to the song all you want but let’s pretend these are role models.

If a woman says that she loves having the shit beat out of her during sex, if a woman says that she loves to be throttled to within an inch of her life, do we all have to say 'yeah, you go girl, female empowerment'?! Is anything else 'judgemental'? Are we not allowed to say 'hang on, I'm not sure about that'? Is that being a 'judgemental twat'?

You have every right to say what you like.

But if a woman said she loved this and you said "no you don't, be quiet", other people also have every right to challenge this response.

Several PPs have asserted that Cardi B et al should not be allowed a voice on the grounds WAP is shit, it's not good for other people, it's not representative of them or their communities, it's influenced by porn culture, it propagates porn culture, it's targeted at the male gaze, and so on.

Some or all of those statements may be true, and it may well be a reason to avoid the content, create a critical response, mobilise against porn culture, etc. But it's not a reason to no-platform these artists and deny them their voices.

What I said was judgemental twattery was invalidating a woman's views by claiming no woman could possibly hold such views and that therefore, they should be denounced as lies or the products of duress.

Questioning and probing a viewpoint doesn't require its silencing, whether it comes from famous artists or other MNers.

13 year old boys seeing women being violently penetrated in all 3 orifices whilst being smacked and spat on, on their phones, and thinking that's 'normal sex' and going on to expect that in their sexual encounters - yes, that's probably a new phonemenon.

Yeah well, those women probably enjoy that. They're owning their sexuality and this is female empowerment those boys are watching. You go girls.

13 year old boys seeing women being violently penetrated in all 3 orifices whilst being smacked and spat on, on their phones, and thinking that's 'normal sex' and going on to expect that in their sexual encounters - yes, that's probably a new phonemenon.

The tech is new. The sex is not.

This discussion on the normalisation of certain forms of ‘rough’ sex has made me reflect on something. Over the last month I’ve watched an indie music scene I follow have its own MeToo reckoning, with consequences for the perpetrators (bands disintegrating, being dropped by their labels, having their music removed from streaming etc).

What struck me was that a lot of the accounts by these girls (late teens / early 20s) spoke of incidents of rough, uncomfortable, humiliating sex, during encounters that were purportedly consensual. And they mention that they partly went along with it because they didn’t want to come across as prudes. Years later they’re revisiting these experiences and are processing them as assault.

One example below, also attached. The language used is very revealing.

mobile.twitter.com/MelissaBrooksLA/status/1283517317389840384

The availability of porn has undoubtedly altered the sex people have. Part of that, in my view, is that it has taught women that they can do more than lie there while man gets his rocks off. It's allowed women to explore what might also turn her on.

So I'm old enough that porn was still mainly for perverts and teenage boys and wasn't readily avaliable. But I'm also young enough that people had ONS and slept around. Believe me, no one thought it was a woman's job to just lie there while a man gets his rocks off. In fact sex was very much based around a woman's pleasure, you weren't a real man if she didn't cum or couldn't last or didn't know the full ins and outs of a woman's pluming.

You talk like porn liberated women. We all knew what we liked and how to asked for it long before porn. We experimented with different types of sex and and even light Bdsm before porn.

But this song is specifically talking about being beaten and choked with a cock. Not light playful role play Bdsm. Billy Illish talks about having a bleeding nose through sex.

I can't imagine without the invent of porn any women other than a very small masochistic minority would really asked to be beaten during sex. Would asked to be choked with a penis until the point of vomiting.

Women did not need porn to liberate us or tell us what we wanted. We were already liberated and happily experimenting to find what we liked. Porn has told women what they should like - yes there will be a minority that do actually like those things. But I think it's safe to say the majority have been conditioned by porn and a desire to be sexual and hold sexual power. Or as the ladies in the song say - they do them because they are getting paid.

@youkiddingme

I think women who don't enjoy any of the acts we've talked about here (which is totally fine and certainly does not mean they're prudes or have dull sex lives) don't really understand it

So the women who don't like it are too stupid to understand it. That's so much better than, the women who do like it are too stupid to understand it.

The question wasn't 'is it possible to enjoy deep-throat' or 'what are women allowed to enjoy' it was 'is this song enpowering?'
Not do I see how, 'I don't find that particular song empowering' translates to 'women shouldn't talk about or enjoy sex'

Re-read.

The women who don't like it (and therefore don't try it) clearly don't understand that it's not about being beaten. That's not a question of intelligence in the slightest. That's not me saying - don't knock it 'til you've tried it btw. Absolutely stick to what you like.

I'm saying - women who do enjoy it are telling you it's not about pain. It's not being hurt or being beaten. Hair pull isn't hair yank. Choke isn't throttle.

That is very different from telling those who do like it that they don't really like it, they're simply too thick to realise they're being manipulated.

Great post @Alabamawhirly1 absolutely spot on.

I'm saying - women who do enjoy it are telling you it's not about pain. It's not being hurt or being beaten. Hair pull isn't hair yank. Choke isn't throttle.

But we're talking specifically about this song and in the song she states she wants to be beaten.

You seem to have interpreted that as light hair pulling or genital smacking which I'm sure most of us have experimented with.

But that's not what this woman is saying. She is saying she wants to be beaten. Beaten means hit with a closed fist. This woman is not talkinh about a little pain and pleasure. She talking about violence against women during sex.

At some point we need to accept that not everything a woman does and says is liberating and empowering. Somethings are damaging and risky behaviours and should not be glamorised in a song. These woman have every right to speak their truth in their music. But we should not be holding it up as empowered and liberated and Tbh, a true femanist would acknowledge that liking risky and violent sex could be damaging, and so wouldn't advertise it in such a positive way and seemingly try and normalise it, because doing so can have negative ramifications on other women.

The same can be said for the transactional element. Some women are able to make money from sex and
from sex work and it is their right to do so. But I don't think it should be glamorised or encouraged. No one should be made to feel ashamed about it - but people need to acknowledge that it's not a lifestyle that should be encouraged or applauded, because for most and for women as a class it can be hugely damaging.

Just because a woman does it and puts a positive spin on it, it doesn't make it empowering. If we took away the sexual element, would it still be empowering and liberating. If I sing a song about other risky behaviours, like self harm, drug addiction, female fight club - I put a positive spin on it and do a bright flashy video - am I empowered and liberated?

@Alabamawhirly1 are you talking about the lyrics "beat it up, n*#%#, catch a charge"

Because they're talking about beating the pussy up.. which isn't anything to do with violence or beating. It means really good sex and knowing how to "hit it" (as in like tap that) right.

I'm referring to more of Megan's content.

Your honor, I'm a freak bitch, handcuffs, leashes
Switch my wig, make him feel like he cheatin'
Put him on his knees, give him somethin' to believe in
Never lost a fight, but I'm lookin' for a beatin' (Ah)
In the food chain, I'm the one that eat ya
If he ate my ass, he's a bottom-feeder
Big D stand for big demeanor
I could make ya bust before I ever meet ya
If it don't hang, then he can't bang
You can't hurt my feelings, but I like pain
If he fuck me and ask "Whose is it?"

Wow, listen to yourselves on this board - arguing over a woman's 'right' to enjoy being objectified and beaten by a man. Great, forward thinking stuff, yay!

Woman gets beaten by a man - misogyny and violence.
Woman begs to be beaten by a man - 'empowering' and 'liberating'.

Man still gets to beat woman. Except that the second option allows him to get away with it scot free. 'She wanted it, your honour'.

Wow that's progress eh?

Wow, listen to yourselves on this board - arguing over a woman's 'right' to enjoy being objectified and beaten by a man. Great, forward thinking stuff, yay!

I know right?!

Yeah again, the beating isn't like a physical violent beating like being beaten up.. they're talking about beating the pussy up you know like in Wait it means give great sex.

"I'ma beat that pussy up
Like B-AM, B-AM, B-AM, B-AM
B-AM, B-AM, B-AM, B-AM
B-AM, B-AM, B-AM, B-AM
B-AM, B-AM, B-AM, B-AM
Beat the pussy up, beat the pussy up
Beat the pussy up, beat the pussy up
Beat the pussy up, beat the pussy up
Beat the pussy up, beat the pussy up"

Oh right - a society where language like 'beat it up' is used to signify good sex - what could possibly go wrong?

It's not a new saying. Nor is beating it to mean having a wank.

I don’t understand this argument that the money for sex part is purely tongue in cheek. In Meghan’s Instagram live yesterday, she was throwing wards of cash at twerking women a.k.a. ‘making it rain’, which is also mentioned in the song. This is an established part of stripper culture.

I don't personally think references to money for sex is tongue in cheek at all. Maybe not literal cars for sex..etc but it's surrounding real goings on.

It goes back years in predominantly black women sex songs, the dirty blues in the 1920s go into loads of details about "tricks" and quite an interesting look into how things changed going into the Great Depression with songs like Tricks Ain't Walking No More. I guess the difference being now in these sorts of songs it's less about needs which is why a lot of women go into sex work and more about wants.

Obviously making it rain is thematic - the genre is Strap, quite literally "stripper rap".
The lyric "Now make it rain if you wanna see some wet ass pussy" is exactly what happens at the club. The more you spend the more you see.

I'm saying - women who do enjoy it are telling you it's not about pain. It's not being hurt or being beaten. Hair pull isn't hair yank. Choke isn't throttle.

I'm not actually sure what you are talking about. I have nothing against animalistic sex. People have been using tooth, claw and hair in sex since forever. I don't even see a need to give it a name as long as it done within the boundaries of what is erotic and enjoyable for all concerned. When people feel the need to ritualise it and make it about power then they can do so if they wish, though I don't get off on that aspect myself. But wherever you deliberately bring in a power imbalance you create a situation when that power can be abused. And women usually come of worst in that scenario. When you bring in money for sex, you automatically bring in that power imbalance. People can play whatever power games they like but selling them as genuine empowerment to women I just don't buy.

Just listened to it as everyone is going on about it on social media. It's awful.

It's basically a to do list of everything girls need to do to men to get the men to pay for the things they want (tuition). That's the absolute opposite of female empowerment in my view. Female empowerment is making your own money not relying on a man. And certainly not letting him do anything he likes to you so he'll pay for stuff. Once upon a time it was called a sugar daddy and it didn't lead to those women being respected for living off a man. The argument might be 'why go out and work for a living when you could just have sex and get everything you want' but that's prostitution by another name.

Absolutely awful and I hope it doesn't generate more of the same shit in future.

It's nothing new - I'll just leave this beauty from 1930 here for your enjoyment