to think this is sexual harassment not "an equal opportunities issue"?

[SwissWank]

If I am expecting a vulva and in a private room am met with a penis...

I don't have to touch your penis, surely?

www.buzzfeed.com/lanesainty/trans-woman-brazilian-wax?utm_term=.wn9yL7dKK#.aoLOxVqZZ

Female-only salon

Violet I hadn't heard of that case so I just looked it up
It's interesting to read about trans panic when it seems to me there's an argument Gwen assaulted those men, certainly no proper consent was obtained
Not an excuse for murder, just wondering how that aspect would work in court.

do you think you have the right to know whether they have penis or a vagina, before it's staring by you in the face, or not?

Absolutely. I would also feel extremely uncomfortable if I found out later on in a relationship that person was post op trans. It's deception. I don't think a person can consent to sex if they don't have this information. Whether or not id have a problem with it if the person was openly trans or not is a different story, but to not disclose that info first is wrong. Not in a trans phobic way, but in the same way that I would be unhappy if I found out that the person I was dating was married. There are things that need to be disclosed and being trans is one of those things.

I've said on the other thread that this worries me because I am a beauty therapist and am looking eventually to run my own home salon which will include body waxing as a treatment.
As I'll be working at home alone just with each client a lot of the time I wish to run it as a female only salon.
I fear that if things like this come into law in going to be forced to treat biological males and touch and treat male genitals or risk my business!
I feel nervous.

I said on the FWR thread that despite never having had or wanted a "Brazilian" if I were in Australia I would book this salon for perhaps a tidy up and give it a 5 star review.

I use this salon (different branch) and have already booked my next treatment (not a brazilian, but other treatment). They're incredibly professional, and if anything, this makes me more likely to return knowing that the staff will never undertake something for which they are not qualified.

box you should feel nervous. Have you written to your MP?

do you think you have the right to know whether they have penis or a vagina, before it's staring by you in the face, or not?

Well, I do. Thing is, though, once someone has a Gender Recognition Certificate, they are the other sex, legally. And so any reference to a person's previous sex is a big no no. That was what stemmed from the original case in the ECHR. And you don't need surgery to get one. In fact, moves are afoot for us to go the way of the ROI and do away with anything other than saying you are the other sex.

It's a mess for women. A worrying mess.

TimeforaNNChange re "...we really need to stop pussyfooting around and commit one way or another - are we redefining the word or not?"

No, I think we should not. Trans women are trans women, and women are women. If it is established, in an article etc, that a situation is talking about trans women, then the person/people may or may not be called 'women' later on in the article but it has already been established they are trans women in the article.

LumpySpacedPrincess Re "... that's appropriation of another person's identity, you cannot do that. The world was horrified by Rachel Dolezal but somehow accepts the appropriation of women."

You may find this interesting. I don't agree with Kat Blaque on this at all. I think she assumes a lot. She is trans and is arguing she didn't chose to transition Rachel chose to (to become 'black')....

(this may make some people's blood boil at the idea of a white woman with privilege but a black man without it!)

I don't agree with what Rachel did, at all, but I don't see it as any different to what Kat Blaque did.

I'm bisexual, but if I came home with a 'man' who I then discovered was biologically female, I wouldn't carry on and just think, "I'm bi, I can work with that".

I'm heterosexual.I had a few wild years in my youth. If I had gone home with a 'man' and discovered "he" had a vagina "he" wouldn't have seen me for dust.

Trans women are trans women, and women are women. If it is established, in an article etc, that a situation is talking about trans women, then the person/people may or may not be called 'women' later on in the article but it has already been established they are trans women in the article.

I think that is a clear decision not to "redefine" the word though - no one is under any allusion as to what the word means.

Compare that to the media coverage of a self-identifying transwomen who had been found guilty of murder, in which the articles referred to her as a woman and avoided publishing her photograph in order to prevent her identity as a transwomen being exposed.

In those articles, the word woman meant something very different to the "traditional" definition.

NN I agree, the BBC in particular have been very misleading in their reporting of crimes by Transwomen, just referring to them as women and not publishing photographs. A number of us have challenged them on this and been brushed off.

There is nothing to redefine. A woman who was born a man and has transitioned to a woman is by very definition a 'trans woman'. I am a woman, I am not a 'cis woman'. I am not going to be the one relabelling my identity.

And despite all the bollocks about 'pregnant men' etc, there just isn't this pressure out there to redefine 'manhood' from trans men.

brandon the danger of dismissing it as "bollocks" and refusing to engage is that it will continue to happen and your identity will be redefined without your consent.

Yes, it is dangerous to dismiss this as nonsense. For some inexplicable reason the transactivists have been incredibly effective at lobbying and are about to get the word woman redefined so as to be meaningless

I won't pretend I'm not very confused by this. Is this to be met with tolerance, or does this just take the absolute piss out of women?

A biological female, who lives as a man, is afforded all the luxury of being a male, decided they wanted to experience pregnancy but remain as a 'man', becomes pregnant, but said he was not a woman, and did not want people to use female pronouns, even when pregnant.
They had breast removal surgery, but still chose to breastfeed. But again, as a man.
And refers to his baby being nourished by its Father's milk.

If a 'man' can now be pregnant, and fathers can legally breastfeed, I forsee having to wax a penis in a women's salon as the least of our future problems.

What I meant to say there was, is it really too much to ask, make up your fucking mind?

If you feel like a woman whatever that means and want to live your life as a woman, why would you choose to keep the one defining external feature that makes you intrinsically male, and ask people to just accept you're a woman with a penis? You are not.

If you want to be a male, be one. But don't then 'come back' and cherry pick the things that are intrinsically female experiences. Pregnancy is something only women do.
Breastfeeding is something only women do.
Don't take those away from us, too.

Father's breastmilk indeed .

violet that's a really interesting piece, and unusual as its one of the only times I've seen a F2M trans activist "cherry picking" as you so eloquently describe it.

It goes back to the question of what it means to "feel like" the opposite sex to the one you are born - the feelings of being pregnant must be associated with only biological females, surely? I question whether any biological male would ever "feel" those things. How does someone who is so strongly motivated to change their gender identity cope with feelings that are so fundamentally female?

Trevor is an absolute bellend. Forced La Leche league to make him a breastfeeding counsellor, regardless of how comfortable women might be with that! Fortunately whenever there are pieces about "pregnant men" it's always him, so I think he's the only one. He's also the one who complained about his feelings being hurt when he saw his midwife had signed the letter objecting to th words "woman" being replaced in pregnancy and birth literature with "pregnant individual" and "birthing person".

I agree Time.

Maybe I'm wrong (and I'm sure many transactivists would tell me am), but I believe if you truly feel like you were meant to be the opposite sex, that would be an all encompassing thing.

If you were F2M, you would first and foremost, want your body to align to your brain. And men do not have wombs, ovaries or vaginas.

It just seems beyond comprehension that Trevor above, wishes to be a man, and he legally is one.
He is married, is legally someone's Husband. Yet decides his family isn't complete unless he experiences pregnancy, so he becomes pregnant by penetrative sex with his Husband.
But don't you dare suggest he is doing anything female, or call him a 'she' .

It's a man's world. Men can do anything, now even things that biologically are ours.

From birth to bikini waxes, if you were born a male, or change sex to become one, doors open for you- whether that's to a beauty salon or birthing room.

There's also Thomas Beattie too, Hermione. I think he was the first?

Oh and his justification for why he is a real man, is disgusting.

Just as adoption doesn’t prevent a woman from being a real mother, birth and breastfeeding don’t make me into one, either

What a twat.

Oh no, there can't be two of them?!

I think there are a handful of TM who have got pregnant (as you say, fuck only knows why) but Trevor certainly seems to be the most vocal, the most delusional and actually the most danger to women in terms of if men can get pregnant, it ceases to be a protected characteristic.

I veer between hating him and feeling sorry for him.

Well you're more tolerant than me then Hermione, as I can't muster up any sympathy.

Using the term 'Birthing individual', so someone who is pushing a person out of their vagina doesn't get offended by the word 'woman'?! Wow.

It just seems like nobody is prepared to quite lose their identity as a male.

I think 'Trevor' has fully embraced being a man, and now has the ego to think they deserve the experiences afforded women only, too. It's ego, pure and simple.

"I am not a woman- I am a man who just so happens to have a woman's reproductive system. I want a family, because I want to be a Dad, so I will use my remnants of womanhood to benefit my male desire to be a father- but don't you dare say my pregnancy or lactating breasts are female."

It's the same with this M2F who wants his penis waxed.
"I am a woman, I wear make up and grow my hair, I dress like a woman, but I have a penis and testicles. I want my pubic hair removed in a woman's salon, I have tbe right to be there. But don't dare call my penis a male appendage, or I'll sue you".

The world is fucking crazy.

There's also Thomas Beattie too, Hermione. I think he was the first?

Certainly the one who made a huge fuss. Last seen in the press in the context of a rather nasty divorce involving stalking and domestic violence.

The Pregnant man Thomas Beatie finalizes contentious three year divorce | Daily Mail Online
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3256399/The-Pregnant-man-finalizes-contentious-three-year-divorce-agreeing-shark-tooth-collection-ex.html

Other cases of pregnant people who call themselves men.

'Male pregnancy' figures reveal how 54 MEN gave birth in Australia in the past 12 months | Daily Mail Online
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2836374/Male-pregnancy-figures-reveal-54-MEN-gave-birth-Australia-past-12-months.html

This jumped out from that article,

It is likely that the men giving birth were born female but identify as male and kept their female reproductive organs after transitioning.

Likely?
What the fuck else are they going to be?! Men can't get pregnant ffs.