Why do men like this woman so much and women don't?

[Pjy]

I'm interested from a kind of study of the human condition pov, it's interesting to see the different ways people respond.

She's a woman I know through a sport. She's pretty good, but not outstanding. Works hard and deserves what she achieves. She's friendly and sociable, can perhaps be a bit opinionated, but nothing extreme, much less so than some men! She's "ordinary" to look at. Not unattractive, maybe a bit plain and doesn't seem particularly interested in her appearance (a good thing in my book). She's clean and presentable, but not glamorous or interested in clothes and makeup, not the obvious type to gain male attention iyswim.

She's very popular with men. I'm not saying the fancy her (maybe they do, I don't know), but they seem to enjoy being around her, respect her ability and training in a way they don't other, sometimes more successful, women.

Women, including me, just find something a bit off about her. I can't put my finger on it, I don't dislike her, but she's not someone I want to be friends with. Some of the other women really dislike her, but also can't really explain it.

Is it as straightforward as a bit of jealousy, or something else?

You say they don’t discuss other women in the same way but you don’t know what they say about you when you aren’t around, do you?

Agree with all of this wholeheartedly.

Can you tell us a bit more about the feminist rants you said you've had when these men have been discussing her looks?

I'm having trouble trying to imagine it?

Do the men really say - she played well but she's nothing much to look at?? In so many words?

I would be getting a group together of women and men and creating some policies for the club - our club is not about judging people's appearances.

The fact that you, OP, think you would have to minimise these comments as a "feminist rant" is you half-apologising for something you know to be right, leaving you feeling moral injury.

I often find that when I can't stop thinking about someone, or I notice them or how others are with them specially, it's because they have got under my skin. They represent something I need more of in my own life. What does Jane represent to you?

Non-compliance with conventional feminine behaviours
Interest in and passion about things she likes rather than people's opinions
Congruence in herself so she doesn’t need to second guess if people fancy her or not.

Are these things you would like more of in your life?

Is she very very outgoing? The most popular (with men) woman I ever met was just incredibly friendly, never walked past anyone she’d met even once without stopping to chat and so on. Unlike your example, women liked her too, but most of her friends were men, and she was romantically popular too. She wasn’t especially beautiful, stylish or witty or anything, just so warm. Similar?

Men sometimes like and appreciate women they don't want to sleep with, particularly if they have a shared interest such as sport.

Sounds like some women dont like a woman who's platonically "popular" with men, which is entirely their problem.

I spent my first 40 years in a very male dominated environment's so i am completely at ease in male company. I have great female friends both new and old. I would be one of those women that would give an "off" vibe, not that it would bother me.

Attractive personality and self confidence. Being comfortable in yourself is a very attractive personality trait.

Honestly don’t see the need to slag the OP off - sounds like her fellow players are all way too preoccupied with this woman and she’s confused as to why. Not that she’s jealous of/hates her.

I'd hazard a guess that it's because she's ordinary enough to seem attainable, and therefore potentially easier for men to fantasise about. (Come on, we all know they do it, even if they love their wives.) But maybe I'm just being cynical.

She is charming in a natural way, looks are overrated past a certain point. It can drive other women crazy who put lots of effort in but aren’t particularly great company. It sounds like the men like her if they keep talking about her but mentioning she is plain is probably to placate the other women, they are way past thinking she is unattractive.

This is a very good point! If they'll gossip about one person, they'll certainly gossip about others.

This is so grim. If a bloke said this to me I’d point out he’s no Adonis and distance myself from him going forward.

I play a sport sometimes and whilst it’s natural for people to asses whether someone’s “fanciable” id be so put off if I found out they were discussing me like that. How old are you all? It sounds like fat retired blokes in a pub complaining the 20 year old bar maid has gotten chubby.

“I just dont want to be friends with someone that men are attracted to but I deem unattractive”.

Beauty is related to looks. Attractiveness is the energy and vibe someone has. And it sounds like this woman has it in spades. Unbothered by her appearance, friendly, sociable, confident in her opinion, dedicated to training and comfortable in the company of men.

maybe she gives off a vibe to women because the women where you train bitch about her and why would anyone let their guard down around that?

So she just gets on really well with men. And they all fancy her which is why they’re all at pains to say she’s “plain”. Men tend to bond over fancying the same woman to point that it’s sometimes just because all their mates do. They’re all in a subliminal competition to see who will get her.

Why a girl next door type? Because she’s achievable - they’re all average themselves after all.

This is so grim. If a bloke said this to me I’d point out he’s no Adonis and distance myself from him going forward

If that is actually what they said and hasn’t been manipulated to try and turn round a thread that probably hasn’t gone the way the OP expected.

It's very sad that they feel the need to qualify their 'liking' of her by insulting her looks in the same breath. I think a lot of men bond this way. Or perhaps they're trying to deflect taunting ('oh you don't fancy her do you?') by denigrating her and making it obvious that they aren't attracted. Either way, it does all reflect pretty badly on men. And women too seem to enjoy undermining other, successful women by joining in this kind of talk.

All horrible.

Who can know?

Some men (and women, I guess) like an uncomplicated, straightforward, no-nonsense, low-maintenance (in an emotional sense) woman. The sort of person I imagine Zara Phillips probably is - or her mum Princess Ann.

And some men just love a woman who shows them she needs constant admiring attention, protection, emotional fussing etc etc. They seem to enjoy the frequent tears and the fuss over all kinds of minorupsets... You see it on MN all the time. Women who've ONLY received flowers, a modest gift and a meal out on their birthday and it's just not enough and they're going to sulk. Now, you do need to be very pretty to get away with this malarkey. You'd think this would put men off, but it doesn't! Well, a certain type of man, I guess.

You can tell which sort I favour! And my friends are all of the first type.

But there are always people who don't fit either of these types...and sexual attraction is sometimes a complete mystery.

I find it weird that you and the 'men' talk so much about other women. I don't think I would really know what men in my professional life (or personal actually) think about women and whether they are attractive or plain, and if they did, I am likely to take umbrage at it. Maybe you work in a more overt misogynistic sector. It does seem that you equate attractiveness with success, and the men around you think nothing of categorising and speaking about a women in this way behind her back. Maybe you should start calling this behaviour out.

Actually you might have hit the nail on the head!

The OP and the other women probably do taunt them about fancying her - hence them mentioning her 'plain' looks etc.

If they weren't so insecure, the subject would probably not come up.

Well you mentioned her looks here so you are just as "astounded" as the men about her I mean she isn't even "glamorous"

I can be a bit like this, I am pretty average but most men get on well with me and most woman tend to not like me, honestly I think it’s because I am awkward and really struggle with the initial conversation when you don’t really know someone so can come across rude/ uninterested, men don’t seem to care too much and I get on very very well with women if I am given the chance to get past the really awkward initial stage.

Why are fully grown women still competing for the male gaze? I find it all a bit ridiculous.

Ive always got on better with men than women and my explanation is that I always wanted a brother. So I think I subconsciously try to bond with men in a different way. That may be a load of codswallop but thats my view. I dont fancy these men or try to flirt. I just tend to have the same outlook and humour.

I agree that the OP above does indicate some insecurity of this kind. As for the 'pick me' thing, from OP's description she is the very definition of entirely the opposite. She's clean and presentable, but not glamorous or interested in clothes and makeup, not the obvious type to gain male attention iyswim. This isn't an observation that this woman is in any way in competition for anyone's attention.

What is revealing here, OP, is your own value system. You're basing women's worth solely on appearance and ability to attract men. I don't want to engage in the MN sport of 'kick an OP', but is has to be said that this isn't an attractive trait. In mitigation, this is also the social BS that's fed into women practically from birth, so the fact that so many women have internalised it is unsurprising.

It sounds as though this woman hasn't. This, for one, would attract my interest in her: maybe she has more interesting conversation at her disposal. It's impossible to tell through mere pixels what other qualities she has that are attractive. Perhaps she's charismatic. Perhaps she's intelligent, or witty, or kind. Perhaps she's understated and her clothes whisper rather than shout, so that once she's dressed, clean and well-presented, she gives no further thought to the way she looks or cares for others' approval. In some cases, this can be devastatingly attractive.

It may be that you're too self-conscious and this is being projected onto a convenient figure. But my takeaway from this thread is that as a society, we value the wrong things.