Why do men like this woman so much and women don't?

[Pjy]

I'm interested from a kind of study of the human condition pov, it's interesting to see the different ways people respond.

She's a woman I know through a sport. She's pretty good, but not outstanding. Works hard and deserves what she achieves. She's friendly and sociable, can perhaps be a bit opinionated, but nothing extreme, much less so than some men! She's "ordinary" to look at. Not unattractive, maybe a bit plain and doesn't seem particularly interested in her appearance (a good thing in my book). She's clean and presentable, but not glamorous or interested in clothes and makeup, not the obvious type to gain male attention iyswim.

She's very popular with men. I'm not saying the fancy her (maybe they do, I don't know), but they seem to enjoy being around her, respect her ability and training in a way they don't other, sometimes more successful, women.

Women, including me, just find something a bit off about her. I can't put my finger on it, I don't dislike her, but she's not someone I want to be friends with. Some of the other women really dislike her, but also can't really explain it.

Is it as straightforward as a bit of jealousy, or something else?

This sounds a bit like me in my first job. There was a group of women who were classic mean girls (albeit mean girls with PhDs!). I bodyswerved them and gravitated towards the blokes. Over 20 years later I'm still friends with the blokes and declining LinkedIn requests from the women. 😂
You sound like a bunch of nasty teens OP!

This is very true i think. Imo it often comes down to charisma.

i also can’t put my finger exactly on why this person I know seems off.

she is similar - reasonably attractive but not stunning, works hard, highly sociable with the men but a lot of the women don’t like her. I think she particularly icy with me though. No idea why.

Yes, and obviously according to some, it's Jane's fault, Jane must be autistic, Jane perhaps can' t read social cues and understand the norms - what?

If an ongoing bitchfest about some poor woman's looks is the epitome of social skill and grace, you can stick it.

Agree. I've known various women who men go wild for and it's not always the prettiest, most glamorous, most socially approved perfect body or anything like that. It's a vibe that can be hard to pin down. I heard one man say "I don't know what it is about her, you can just tell she'd be amazing in bed" which is a bit basic but if we're being generous, you could take to mean she seems relaxed, fun, self-assured, happy in her body etc.

One of these women was on the rowing team when I was at uni. She was quite normal-looking, short hair, a bit curvy (unlike most of the team as rowers tend to be long and lean), and just had a massive "don't give a shit" vibe. Men were falling over themselves for her and it did piss off some other women who felt they made more of an effort. I often think about her when I worry about looks etc. (Though I'm also happily single now.) Confidence and being happy with who you are go a long way.

My eldest daughter has always got on better with men than women. At secondary school she found the girls were always falling out with each other and preferred the company of boys as she found them less intense in friendship terms.

As an adult now with a husband and family she socialises with the women she works with occasionally but doesn't have close female friends.

You seem just as obsessed with her as the men all are.

She is just herself and that is very attractive but can be quite threatening to people who are constantly trying to be something that they’re not.

Maybe she is easy company, maybe she is interesting, maybe she is nice, possibly they are attracted to her. Who knows, what I think is weird is the women getting together to discuss the situation.

I couldn't agree more. What a horrible bunch of people. Im glad my circle of friends aren't like this.

Does she make equal effort with the women in the group op?

In all honesty if a woman made significantly more effort with men than me or other women then I'd probably feel like she'd judged me a bit and decided I was a certain 'type' of woman she doesn't value and that would honestly get my back up. I'd still make effort with her but I'd wonder if she struggles with female friendships.

Is this the vibe you get?

I don't see how her appearance is coming up as often as it seems to be in your conversations. What a messed up group dynamics. I also think the men in your group are grim that they cannot comment on a womans effort in sport without reducing her to her appearance.

I’m more concerned that you are having conversations with men who say that a woman is good at sport but not much to look at. Instead of being “curious” about this woman, maybe a bit of self reflection into why you still engage with these men is needed. Also the use of the word “rant” in conjunction with the word “feminist” indicates more than a pinch of internalised misogyny.

Agree with all of this. Very relatable. My dd is very similar too.

The women don’t like her because she’s not “womaning properly”

If her personality was in a man’s body she wouldn’t be judged like this.

Most of my friends are male and I generally get on very well with nearly all men. I only have a very small select group of women I get on with. I’m not really attractive, I’m a bit squidgy and I’m certainly not glam.

From my own perspective I find women very cliquey. There is a system whereby one or two women are the top lionesses, they tend to consider themselves the “popular girls” the pretty, sociable, successful ones who think they are men’s top pick because they fit the stereotypes of what they think men want. Other women gather to these women and are accepted into the group by sharing the views of the lead lionesses and agreeing that they are top of the pack. They want the approval and protection of this pride. Getting the best male attention by association.

What's happened here is this woman has thrown a spanner into the works by neither joining the pride or sharing the lead lionesses values. She’s ignored the unwritten social rules and people who believe in them (as you clearly do) are confused why she’s attracted male approval outside the values and norms of the pride of lionesses. It brings into question the authority of that hierarchy.

Women dislike women who can’t be arsed with the fawning, bitching backstabbing vacuous circus that usually surrounds most female “friendship” groups. Because it brings into question the value of those things.

Men make much better mates (except neuro diverse women - also reject the superficial cliques - they are generally great friends to have too)

i have adhd and autistic so perhaps see through the bull shit. IME ND women get on better with men as they are far more straightforward

I think you and others dont like the fact , that she looks and sounds confident in her own skin and abilities, doesn't sound like she out to impress anyone male or female, and that makes you uncomfortable.

Yes, I liked this post.

The way that the OP describes the men talking about this woman’s looks reminds me of my office back in the late 90s. That stuff is quite aging now - young people don’t slag off coworkers’ / team members’ looks out of earshot.

I want to be kind to the OP. She hasn’t said that she dislikes or is unpleasant to this woman but that she finds something a bit off about her. I have had women that I couldn’t warm to and not been sure why - I suspect that they didn’t actually like me all that much and it showed in very small ways that I didn’t consciously notice.

You sound jealous OP! Do you want the men’s attention? Does it bother you the men all like her better than you? Are you 15?

This sounds like a kind of gym envy or something and if I’m honest I’d side with the other woman and all the men because the rest of you sound insufferably bitchy.

Maybe she's nice and friendly?

Women tend to be deeply suspicious of other women who are deemed to be “too friendly” with men and “not friendly enough” with the sisterhood.

It’s so odd. I don’t for one minute think men have any issue with or even particularly notice other men’s appearance or if they are friendly with women. We, on the other hand, seem a little obsessed with any woman who doesn’t fit a fixed idea of how a woman should behave and look.

OP, maybe sporty woman finds the other women in the group dull as ditchwater and just has no interest in talking to them? Perhaps she’s also noticed you all appraising and judging her looks. Fortunately sounds as if she’s very comfortable in her own skin.

Confidence, joyfulness, charm, charisma, being funny, …? Lots of things can make someone especially attractive to be around,

What someone looks like - even if it’s the onlookers “type” - can be downgraded to disinterest if the person has very little to attract. Like have you never seen someone who on paper should be attractive to you and then you find them dull or boring or self-centered or something else that turns you off?

In the opposite direction it can be a simple as a twinkle in the eye that suggests they are fun..

Have you never been attracted to a non-conventionally attractive man OP?

As for the “off” thing … you’d have to say more - people saying possible neurodivergence is a huge leap. You have not given any kind of account about what is off.. other than men all being interested though DEFINITELY not sexually (👀)…

Maybe next time the men in your circle start going on about how ‘great at sport but plain looking’ Jane is, tell them to shut the fuck up about Jane?

No idea what’s going on here, but the problem certainly isn’t Jane…

I am like this, always have been. I am AuDHD but it’s not about my ND, exactly, it’s about the fact that I just want people to be consistent, fair and not bitchy. Can’t be doing with the mood/hormone swings as I appreciate they happen (I’m a woman too, obviously) but FFS be an adult and moderate your behaviour rather than ‘air’ or ‘ghost’ or just be plain snipey.

I find men more direct, less bitchy, less complicated in that if they are your mate on Monday, they will still be your mate on Friday whereas so many women can turn on a dime for no obvious reason that has nothing to do with you personally, and I’ve found that really difficult to navigate. I do have 1-2-1 female friends and a couple of those have been quite long term over my children’s lifetimes, but I actually am closer to my DH’s best mate from school as he is so straight-forward. I do love his new post-divorce girlfriend though - we are both parents of ND kids/teens, she works in a male dominated industry and we have run out of fucks to give, so are operating with each other the same way as out OHs do. She’s a breath of fresh air, frankly.

You dislike her because men like her

Women dislike women who can’t be arsed with the fawning, bitching backstabbing vacuous circus that usually surrounds most female “friendship” groups. Because it brings into question the value of those things.

My God. My dd was explaining pick-me culture the other day. I know now what she means.

I don’t think the men really like her or they wouldn’t be saying ‘she played well but nothing to look at’
They sound just as bad as the women snarking about her, a woman just going about her business enjoying her sports and a bunch of cunts gossiping about her, you should say where this is so we can all avoid or better yet we can go along and cheer her on!!!

@MaggiesShadow
Ive encountered lots like that, women who actively dislike other women, always desperate for attention.
I have 3 DDs and always champion women, this constant competitive shit is pathetic.
A confident woman doesn't care who talks to who.