Has a man dressed as a woman ever come into a communal changing room with you or joined a specifically female group you belong to ?

[Rilkescat]

How common is it ? Not really referring to stories in the media but for everyday women on MN. FWIW I've never met a trans person that I know of, neither professionally or socially. I'm a HCP so meet alot of members of the public. None of my kids have friends that are trans nor do my friends have children that are either.
Loads of trans threads at the moment. No problem with that but just wondered if it really is that prevalent ?
Before I get flamed I'm not in favour of biological womens' safe spaces being open to biological men but equally I don't think that all trans people, especially trans women are necessarily sexually deviant or mentally ill.

No never.

Yes gym changing room, wandering about naked. pre op obvs.

I have known transmen and women for over 30 years. Part of the Gender Bending era I too would be Trans, using today's criteria.

The 2 specifically trans individuals I know are horrified by all the fuss these days. Transman uses male facilities - he, like many transmen 'passes' quite well and he wouldn't dream of using female facilities. Though he does obviously attend female health clinics - and reminds staff of his trans status before attending. Why? Because he has scared the shit out of a few women and doesn't want to do that again

Transwoman I know is much the same but stopped using female facilities many years ago, again having scared the shot out of a number women. She now lives with the "urinary leash" women used to live with.

Neither think they have changed sex. Transman has had all the surgeries available (I was his medical companion for much of it); transwoman had facial feminisation and breast implants, But age has reversed the facial enhancements and now, at 60+, she just sees her dad in the mirror these days.

See, pronouns... because these are people I see almost daily, they are friends. We all know the truth...

Yes, at the Hammersmith Lyric in London. The toilets had been relabelled something like 'Cubicles (no urinals)' and 'Cubicles and Urinals'. The former women's toilets were the first along the corridor, so all the men headed in. It was awful. The man behind me in the line said loudly to his mate "This is nice. Much cleaner than the men's." Other men came in and walked right past the queue to try cubicle handles. The women were too uncomfortable to speak up. Only when a man said "Hey there's a queue!" the other men stopped and joined the end.

Hanging around in the corridor later, I observed that about 1/3 of the men did not notice that they were entering what was properly a women's space, about 1/3 registered this but did not care (or activity enjoyed it) and about 1/3 were horrified or embarrassed and looked for the correct men's toilet.

No.

It seems to only be on MN do these scenarios occur even though the number of trans people is absolutely tiny.

Loads of times in public toilets in London. Always lots of performative lipstick applying and lingering by the mirrors.

I have a few trans women in my wider social circle - all men in dresses making a lot of noise - so much noise- about their "lived experience " as women. I keep my mouth shut but I'm rolling my eyes hard.

The trans Men I know are all what would be called Lesbians in old money, although they present more convincingly as through Testosterone etc they have facial hair and mostly look like slight, podgy men.

I do not subscribe to gender woo, I think people should be allowed to present however they wish. But same sex spaces should be preserved for the dignity and safety of women, even if there was only one Transwoman on the planet.
I am very worried about changes to Self ID meaning that crimes become reported incorrectly according to gender rather than sex.

There has been quite a bit of drama at a swingers club I attend recently.

Generally everyone at the club is very respectful of each other. There are three changing rooms - men’s, couples and women and trans. There’s also a small stand alone changing room (a bit like the size/style of an accessible toilet, but it’s just a changing room) that anyone can use. Generally it’s used by a few single women. The accepted etiquette is no solo men in the C&W changing room (couples make up the largest group hence the biggest changing room being that one).

One particular person has been causing bother demanding to be allowed in the c&w changing room as he identifies as a woman. He doesn’t dress as a woman or present as a woman.

The people most pissed off with him are actually a few of the very vocal genuinely trans women. The most vocal has had full surgery, hormones and has lived as a trans woman for around 15 years, but she is the first to say that she lives as a trans woman and that is very different from being a man, and still different from being a biological woman.

There was a M to F working in dept store ladies underwear changing room area a few years ago when I took teen DD to get some undies. We went elsewhere
I would have done the same if there had been a man of any description working there.

I couldn't comment on whether any of them were trans, as trans has apparently nothing to do with how you present yourself. All I could tell was that they were clearly men - you know, adult human males.

No to both.
Trans people don’t affect my life in any way tbh.
I know one, they wear female clothing and have a female name. Lovely person.

A decade ago, a staff member who was a man with breasts came to work on a day off dressed as Little Bo Peep.

Short dress, frilly knickers, hair in pigtails.

The place we worked was open to the public with schools coming for tours and visits mostly 4-5 days of the week. Mostly primary.

Do you think we are all making this up for shits and giggles? Would it be appropriate for any staff member to come to work dressed as Little Bo Peep? He was in his 50s.

I don't think you are making it up for shits and giggles, no...

So?

Another dramatic post that completely misses the point 🙄

No one gives a shit about people getting on and living and dressing how they want. But we all want our daughters to have sex-based safe spaces without any biological males thinking they’re entitled to use and abuse them. Men are responsible for the majority of violent and sexual crime and girls and women are predominantly the victims. You can’t filter who are the good men… you just keep them away. It’s nothing to do with trans and everything to do with the pragmatism of keeping females safe.

If you think that wanting to keep girls and women safe is ‘hysterical’ then shame on you.

Yes. I live in a big university city and it seems to be quite common. I have had some neutral experiences and some very unpleasant experiences.

Before I went to university I was not against sharing women's spaces but I have witnessed shockingly inappropriate behaviour such as rooting through sanitary bins, "accidental" recording and verbal/physical assault. We were expected to accept a few women as collateral damage else be labelled transphobic for complaining. The NUS trans officer was suspended for exhibiting "her" erect penis around in public and female spaces but had a string of other allegations about "her" behaviour.

My DH works with a number of high profile trans women. They're all very talented and highly driven professionals. DH also works with a number of high profile men and women. No difference in his eyes. And if they come to our home they are treated respectfully. I'm not going to deadname them or send them out of my home because they happen to have boobs and a dick.

I used to work in a plus size clothes store and we had a couple of trans customers. Both were super respectful around the changing room issue. We had individual cubicles with an entrance to the changing rooms part way down. They’d ask if there was an empty half and if it was busy just take stuff home to try. I got the impression they were more worried about being called out and embarrassed than we were about them sharing the space. Definitely absolutely no sense that they wanted to intrude.

I've written about this before on this forum. I was at a campsite toilet and went in to find a man there (he was presenting as a man). I thought he'd gone in by mistake and told him it was the women's toilets. He told me he was a woman!
This was a lunch time event. He went to get the manager (male) who came in and found me and other one female in the toilet and told me I'd caused upset. I was thrown off the premises.

I've never noticed anyone in the loos or changing rooms. But have been asked a couple of times if I'm in the right space - I was, I'm a woman and was in a women's space, it's just I'm chunky and not very feminine. So I understand how some trans people might feel if someone made them feel unwelcome.

And yet women have so often been pressured by men to do/believe things that works to the women's disadvantage. And that includes allowing men into their safe, single sex spaces. Too many women don't have the strength to fight against this so those of us who do have that strength need to fight on their behalf.

fyi - I'm met quite a few trans people over the years both socially and at work. Some are nice, some aren't - same as any other group of people. But as others have said - you won't know who the not nice ones are sometimes until it is too late.

No, I've never been in a changing room with a transvestite or pantomime dame... however I've been in a couple of female social groups where legitimate trans women have joined.
We were welcoming and it was very much a non issue.

Yes and yes.

I self exclude as much as possible these days. I don't care how 'nice' these men are, trans or just wearing women's clothes (who can tell the difference). I decide whether I'm comfortable with my boundaries being breached. I decide if I'm comfortable sharing facilities with males. I decide whether or not to be involved in some males validation fantasy.

If that makes me a bigot, so be it.

No to either. I know one trans man very well and knew them before transition. Also one trans woman who I know a bit. Our next door neighbour transitioned (Male to female) at a time of a lot of stigma and abuse and I think was incredibly brave.

No, does not to me invalidate the concern. I am used to seeing naked men from going to saunas and spas in the Netherlands. I am also not a youngster either. I think of others and the impact it could have on them.

Very different from how it could be for someone who never sees a naked man other than their husband or partner, or for a young woman who may be the one desired by someone born male.

My gosh. That is nuts. I hope you told the organisers higher up why you left.

Do you not understand how safeguarding works @bagelbagelbagel ?
I interact with men every day and I have no reason to think any of them get their "jollies" in women's toilets. However I know that those that do pose a risk to women and girls in in women's toilets are men. And because we have no way of distinguishing the safe ones from the dangerous ones we have to exclude them all in order to keep women safe. That's how you safeguard!
Clothes, pronouns and how a man "identifies" doesn't reduce the risk.