Has a man dressed as a woman ever come into a communal changing room with you or joined a specifically female group you belong to ?

[Rilkescat]

How common is it ? Not really referring to stories in the media but for everyday women on MN. FWIW I've never met a trans person that I know of, neither professionally or socially. I'm a HCP so meet alot of members of the public. None of my kids have friends that are trans nor do my friends have children that are either.
Loads of trans threads at the moment. No problem with that but just wondered if it really is that prevalent ?
Before I get flamed I'm not in favour of biological womens' safe spaces being open to biological men but equally I don't think that all trans people, especially trans women are necessarily sexually deviant or mentally ill.

When I lived in the south east I saw loads and often in changing rooms and as .y patients and so on but since I moved to Somerset I haven't seen any.⁰

There was a man in a dress in charge of the women's changing rooms at our local department store.
I call him that because I didn't ask him whether he was transsexual, transvestite (whatever happened to them?) or just fancied a bit of Betty Barclay that day.

You are brave to post this @Rilkescat , but I agree - mostly. Whilst I absolutely support womens safe spaces being kept for female born women only, I must admit I have NEVER experienced a 'man dressed as a woman' trying to come into a safe space for females... be that toilets, changing rooms (swimming pool and clothes changing rooms) and womens support groups/breastfeeding groups etc.

I am not saying it never happens, but I have never known it happen, and I don't think anyone I know has ever seen it happen either. If they have, they have never mentioned it anyway! I have to say I don't know how I would feel about it. Depends on the situation, and what sort of group it was. If it was a womans 'support' group, then I don't think I'd be happy with it.

Not exactly the same but in a similar vein... A woman in the area I live, used to have a 'Womans' group at her house, and invited a few friends, a few women from the Church, and a few neighbours - including me. We chatted about all sorts of issues from childhood trauma, to adult trauma, and depression, and loss, and periods, and menopause, and children and parents etc, and we had lots of laughs and wine too. (About 15 of us between 40 and 70.)

One woman (who invited herself when she heard one woman from the group reminding me about it this Wednesday,) asked - the second time she went - if her HUSBAND can come next time, as 'he wants to come...' Different circumstances of course as he is not transgender, but it was a WOMANS group. The leader said 'no, it's for women, specifically for women.' The woman in question grumbled and bitched to me and said 'she is breaking the LAW excluding him!' I said 'she is really not as it's her house. Her house, her friends and neighbours and her group. Not a public group.'

As I say, different circumstances but similar, because it was a man trying to shove his face into a womans group. The woman came the next week, but didn't come the following week. The lead woman told everyone what she had said. Not one single woman wanted him there. Why this bloody stupid woman wanted her fucking husband there remains a mystery. Moreover, why did he want to COME?

The woman came back a week later and asked AGAIN, and said her husband regarded it as unfair and probably against the law to not invite him. The leader said he is quite welcome to start his own group, and the woman mithered and whinged so much, that 2 hours into the evening, the leader told her she was not welcome anymore, and she needs to leave!

Women have been excluded from enough MENS stuff over the decades/ centuries, so these entitled men can fuck off. We are entitled to our own groups and safe spaces. And that includes personal private intimate shit like womens support groups and changing rooms and toilets.

The stories on this thread enrage me. All these women having to change their behaviour so society can accommodate the feelings of some men. Women who no longer feel comfortable going to exercise classes/swimming pools. Women walking away from toilets even though they clearly needed to use the facilities. Women buying clothes online because they no longer feel safe using changing rooms in shops. Traumatised women unable to attend support groups.

And meanwhile so many people happy to go along with this because "be kind".

A male GP doing a smear would not bother me. Nor a male midwife. My son had a female urologist do his vasectomy and all associated appointments. Is that wrong or is it just men in ‘female’ spaces.

Don’t they have mixed wards in hospitals? I have no idea.

I'd go a lot further than you and say the whole mixed sauna argument is bogus. I, too, am used to them (live in Germany) and don't bat an eyelid at penises in that kind of space. I also have no issue whatsoever getting dressed and undressed at the beach, without resorting to contortions with towels and suchlike. However, what people don't seem to understand is there's a very specific social consensus around the co-ed nudist tradition. No staring etc, and nothing sexual. I've a few women friends who don't go because there afraid of pervy men, but that's not my experience, and social consensus would deal with it quickly.

Men of whatever gender pushing into a specifically women's sauna session would feel very different. Same penis, different intention on their side and different social context. Just not acceptable. Thankfully it hasn't been an issue yet as the only transpeople in my personal life are ftm including, most recently and heartbreaking, a young niece. I have no doubt it's on the horizon though - our smallish university town has its very own clown squad aggressively targeting/attempting to rename International Women's Day with banners against the "cistem", and I've just seen the "progress" hate flag prominently displayed in town. Just waiting for them to turn up at the public pool's communal showers sometime soon, but maybe that's not where the cool kids are these days.

I know a disproportionate amount or trans people (mainly as a lot of my family are LGBT) All lovely people who are nothing but kind and just want to be left alone to live their lives.

I've only ever had one occasion, when a non-binary person (originally male) told me mtf trans people should be allowed in breastfeeding groups if ftm trans people are allowed, all while I was breastfeeding my child. I was pretty passionate about that not happening, and still don't quite understand their argument for it.

But apart from that one occasion, I have grown up around trans and non-binary people, have friends and family members that are trans/non-binary that are all wonderful people.

It really is a very vocal tiny minority that ruins it for everyone else.

What’s the difference?

@HowDoYouOwnDisorder

Of course trans people are not sexually deviant or a threat...but opening women only areas to people with penises can lead to issues.

Exactly this.

And (some) people need to quit throwing transphobic accusations towards women who don't want anyone but female born women in their personal and intimate safe spaces and support groups.

Just because YOU are OK with it, not everyone else has to be. You are not a better person because you are happy to get undressed down to your undies in front of a person with a penis (who is not your partner.)

Some people don't like it.
Don't want it.
Don't need it.
That is their right.

i also know 6 trans people in my community. Four are older adults with autism and vulnerable. The 5th person is a masculine built female under a lot of peer pressure at school. I suspect she is lesbian rather then trans. The 6th person is a complex teen who struggled with mental health issues and fitting in.

It does bother SOME women though.

Again, that is their right. They have a right to demand a FEMALE for anything intimate.

I’m 23 and approximately a third of my friends are trans or NB. This is not just a phenomena in the MN imagination!

Yes to changing room at work.

Definitely doesn't feel like as much of a problem in real life as certain corners of Mumsnet would suggest.

To be honest I don’t see why we can’t just have single, individual changing rooms with a lock on the door and single toilets with a lock / basin etc like they do in many places now eg Five Guys have this sort of set up in many of their London restaurants. Then everyone is happy, surely.

I've met a fair few trans people over the years but no, never in a female changing room or female group etc

@Rilkescat have you ever considered past use of public loos etc? It isn't just the increase in physical risk to women when men are invited into single sex female spaces. Not to mention the assault on privacy and dignity.

Like health research, for example. It will be nigh n impossible to conduct any meaningful research, to schedule provision etc for any sex based medicine if the sex of individuals is not known. If gender replaces sex then many such things are fucked. Imagine how the NHS will provide adequate prostate cancer screening etc if a cohort of men disappear from the stats. And then what about those men whose NHS identity is now female? I can tell you - they get called for cervical screening... not for prostate screening.

When someone tells you it is all about public loos and changing rooms they are deliberately lying to you. Making this all seem so silly, nonsensical. Really it is about single sex spaces for men and women - like rape crisis centres. I work in one and men and women have entirely different support requirements, medical and psychological and women have differing needs again. And yet, as Sarah Summers found, as we found, none of that matters. TRAs don't care about that. They just want to be allowed in any space they choose.

It REALLY isn't about being fearful, or bigoted. It is about knowing that if gender is allowed to replace sex then there are many, many societal fuck ups being set into motion - and they won't become unravelled easily

Only 0.3% but media is not disproportionate because it can affect up to 50% of the population. Many of whom are now too scared to say so because of the violent actions of the TRA and the actions of misogynists.

I'm not up on the correct terminology but what was clearly a man in sexy women's clothing once did what appeared to be BDSM sex work on the telephone on the train in the quiet carriage and it felt deliberate.

At a comedy gig a man in sexy womens clothing took selfies in the ladies and it felt like we were purposely in the photos. A woman later told me they thought he wanked himself off in the cubicle afterwards but I did not witness that myself.

I have been in the ladies' lavatories with men in women's clothing twice that I am aware of in addition to this. One looked a bit nervous. One was just getting on with it just like me.

It would bother me though.

Yes, a man with a very long beard, wig, mini skirt, fishnets and stilettos came into the womens changing rooms in a shop I was at. I was sexually assaulted at the age of 7 under a changing room door in a mixed sex swimming pool changing room. Although the probability is that he was a perfectly nice person, I did not feel comfortable sharing a changing room with flimsy curtains for doors. This is why women need safe spaces.

Yes. Toilets in a palace we were visiting. I was in there with my DD trying to clean her up as she’d had a wee accident. Very tall middle aged guy in a pink wig and Grayson Perry type ensemble complete with parasol. I shit you not. Decided to take my DD out and sort her out in the car instead. Really surreal experience. I went to a very liberal uni with gender neutral toilets and have been to the loos in gay clubs with trans identified people. But if it’s a ladies loo it feels much more like an imposition.

I did a course that was advertised as women only,
So I go inside the classroom and see a bloke sitting down, then I think is that the teacher, he says his name is Chris and he feels like a woman but has not told anyone of his freinds or family yet.
It was a bit strange, I didn't know how to refer to him he/she
So I kept saying Chris
I was told I could say she in the end
He mostly wore dresses in our class but he wore male clothes when leaving
Dunno what to think tbh
There were ladies in that class who only joined because it was women only, only to have a bloke with overalls on a bike come in (Chris was a plumber).

We now have unisex loos at work. I was involved in the planning and staff consultation. We have a 55/45 ratio of women to men but no-one objected.

We have a trans female at work and as far as I know she uses our toilets but what can you do about it. She lives as a woman