Has a man dressed as a woman ever come into a communal changing room with you or joined a specifically female group you belong to ?

[Rilkescat]

How common is it ? Not really referring to stories in the media but for everyday women on MN. FWIW I've never met a trans person that I know of, neither professionally or socially. I'm a HCP so meet alot of members of the public. None of my kids have friends that are trans nor do my friends have children that are either.
Loads of trans threads at the moment. No problem with that but just wondered if it really is that prevalent ?
Before I get flamed I'm not in favour of biological womens' safe spaces being open to biological men but equally I don't think that all trans people, especially trans women are necessarily sexually deviant or mentally ill.

Well Gilead why don't you ask them.

Because we get quite a lot of females who have transitioned with testosterone come on to MN and on twitter who acknowledge that their presence in a female single sex space may be distressing. And they do not wish to cause any one distress because of their presentation.

Those posters / tweeters etc then say they choose alternative solutions. One yesterday posted about using a specifically designed app to help find solutions for their needs.

The thing is, nothing is gained through an polarised approach.

The point is, your friend may well pass. Male to female transition is not quite so sucessful. Even puberty blocked males could end up very tall thanks to their treatment. But mature males will still have numerous cues in the way they walk, their hand and feet size and without feminising surgery that removes male cues such as bone shape and proportions such as between the top lip and nose that female people of any age can pick.

The point is, any female person who has taken such steps as to take levels of testosterone to modify their body understands that they have done this. Using them in this way is not really the 'gotcha' some posters think it is. I don't know if you are using it as a 'gotcha', or not, but it fails because of the nuance of female transition.

No, I’m not using it as a gotcha. Just wondered what people’s thoughts were. I know the person I mentioned very well and he wouldn’t dream of putting anyone in an uncomfortable situation. He does use the men’s but for obvious reasons always uses a cubicle.

@Gilead would your friend prefer a third space?

And I despair at the number of women who choose to post like this. It's closely akin to the "Well I didn't lock my house cos burglars gonna burgle" idiocy.

MEN*, men are the greatest physical threat face by women and girls.

What you are saying is "There aren't that many of these transwomen, why bother with them?"

What we are saying is "FFS! Transwomen* ARE MEN! Why are you giving them a free pass?"

All those lovely woke labels you spout, cis hetero whateva... you just mean MEN! See beyond the BeKind mantra...

You @verdantverdure are actively advocating that some men are allowed free access to female spaces because there are other kinds of men!

Are you still claiming to have a valid viewpoint whilst remaining woefully ill informed?

Shame on you!

The same as my transman friend - the men's - unless they object. Many transmen are masculine enough to bother some women.

That's what happens when you 'other' yourself. You become unwanted in many spaces. Consequences of choices. I have given up even pretending that there could ever be the perfect answer - as so many have so many arguments as to why they would be the Speshul Exception!

Oops! Apologies to @verdantverdure wrong person 🤔😳

@gilead I think that's really unhelpful. The woman was drawing a parallel between the Nazi Big Lie and the GI Big Lie: twaw. She has been represented wrongly as far as I can see. Frankly, the TRA crowd are obsessed with comparing women who want privacy with holocaust perpetrators, but it isn't us with a massive, funded and privileged propaganda machine behind us.

The man who reported and got me, a woman of Jewish origin, a twitter ban, for calling him a name when he accused ME of virtually loading the cattle cars when refusing intimate care from a male who thinks I'm just a feeling? He was very happy to use Hitler comparisons. Women just aren't allowed to retaliate.

And not people. One person. Not loads of people, unlike the guillotines and kill terfs banners I see at every single TRA demonstration. The threats of death and rape all over every social media platform when the mantra is questioned.

I’d just like to point out that those suggesting the accessible toilet as an option are in the wrong. We fought long and hard for those. They enable us to leave the house.

Exacrlt the same for women's toilets. Shame @gilead cannot empathise with our fight.

I agree. I don't qualify to use the accessible toilet but in places where I've mentioned that the missed sex toilet isn't appropriate because there are men pissing with cubicle doors open, that's where I've been directed. It's not on.

Accessible toilets are generally in much shorter supply than men's and women's and just because I feel threatened and scared in a mix sex toilet, doesn't give me a right to use the toilet of someone who has more daily struggles than me.

In terms of making things accessible I feel like we are going very quickly backwards again on many issues but certainly in deciding that the accessible toilet is for anyone who doesn't fancy the others.

Good God. Words fail me.

Yes, in the women’s communal changing room at a venue for my hobby in London. The first time I encountered them I had my back to the person at the time so my first clue was the very, very deep voice. Most of us would just go in, change and get on with our session/pack up and go home… that person was a big fan of taking their sweet time and standing around in their lacy underwear. In the end if I spotted them in there when I arrived to change I would go straight back out again and use one of the single sex cubicles upstairs. They were cramped and inconvenient and I missed the camaraderie with the other women but I just didn’t feel comfortable changing with that person in there.

No problem.

Shame @gilead cannot empathise with our fight.
Ive not said that.

My cousin's son is trans, it's very difficult to have known a boy from birth and be very close to him and then start referring to him as she and by a different name. I am not anti trans at all, it's just difficult. I see her as a him still.
And yes twice I have been in a changing room and a trans female has come in, very obviously trans, also several times in toilets too.

It enrages me how many women are having to stop using facilities because of these selfish bastards.

I agree @Johnduttonsbuttocks - and how many women are enabling this misogyny and threatening behaviour.

"That's what happens when you 'other' yourself. You become unwanted in many spaces. Consequences of choices."

That's a very accurate assessment.

On a training course, an obvious male in a dress went into the ladies at the break. There were a lot of raised eyebrows in the queue but no-one said anything aloud.

I do qualify for the accessible toilet and I'm ok with anyone who is scared and feels threatened using it, thanks.

That's very generous of you, TheBigWangTheory, but you don't actually get to agree on behalf of every single person who needs accessible toilets. Why should Jason have to queue because you invited an extra person to use the toilet for disabled people?

Imagine that five people are sharing a flat: Adele, Beth, Cat, Davina and Grace. There's a spare bedroom free. Should Davina invite Hilda to move in without everyone else's agreement? The answer is no. You don't hand over the keys to a shared space without getting everyone's consent.

To all those saying they really have no problem with it, here is a thought experiment : next time you are in a public place look at all the males around you. Would you really have no problem stripping off in front of them? Because this is the reality of a push for self-id. There is a tw in his sixties near me who has a beard, a hairy chest and wears fishnet stockings. Do I have a problem with this person? Absolutely not. Do I want to get changed next to them? Absolutely not. That's not prejudice, it's common sense.

And yes, I have been in a changing room with a TW and it was awkward. All the women stopped getting changed and waited. This is the reality of mixed sex spaces. You can call it prejudice all you like but it's women who will lose out.

And this is the reality of self-ID - many, many people are inconvenienced or worse, and the legislation that has been hard fought for becomes meaningless. The ripple effect of this is huge - all to suit the male ego and fragility. We should be pushing back on this for all we’re worth.

I don't want to strip off in front of strangers male or female. If a shop/leisure facility hasn't individual cubicles they don't get my business.

I'm a member of a small health club, with small communal changing rooms with no cubicles. After swimming I was getting changed and just had a towel over me while putting on a panty liner. A presumably trans woman (biological male with a penis) came in with a group of women to get changed. I felt shocked and uncomfortable but didn't dare say anything.