Is this acceptable in a school?

flibbertigibbert

"Is it any different from me walking down the road with female friends, seeing an attractive man and commenting on his appearance after he has walked past?"

I think so - simply because he is in a position of authority; same way that it would be wrong for a newly qualified teacher of 22ish to sleep with an 18 year old sixth former in their class - but not as big a deal if two people of the same age difference met outside of school and started a relationship.

Someone in a teaching position has/should have different boundaries with their students than they do with their friends or collegues.

flibbertigibbert

"Is it any different from me walking down the road with female friends, seeing an attractive man and commenting on his appearance after he has walked past?"

I think so - simply because he is in a position of authority; same way that it would be wrong for a newly qualified teacher of 22ish to sleep with an 18 year old sixth former in their class - but not as big a deal if two people of the same age difference met outside of school and started a relationship.

Someone in a teaching position has/should have different boundaries with their students than they do with their friends or collegues.

there are already several threads on good books to start with.
course there's quality control but if someone's problem is not understanding what the issue is with objectification they'll get an answer in Germaine or Andrea or Simone or any number of places really.
Sometimes you suggest people read things and they say 'ok, where should I start?' He, however, asserted he already knew more about feminism than us. So that's ok then.

Moondog do you really think it is a top idea for men in boys schools to be encouraging their charges to lech over girls?

Really, do you think that?

Why do you care what he reads Moondog?

My suggestion would be Jeremy Clarkson, he might enjoy that.

I'm genuinely interested to know what some of the posters think about women objectifying men.

Last night I was in a bar with a group of male and female friends. A woman came up to one of my (very good looking) male friends, tapped him on the shoulder and dragged him off to dance with her. They hadn't spoken, so the decision was based purely on appearance. Was that acceptable behaviour on her part?

I've watched all of England's world cup matches this year and I enjoyed seeing David Beckham looking very attractive in his suit. What if I had paused the tv so I could look at him some more? Though now I think about David Beckham, is it ok for him to appear on the front of a magazine with his top off?

I understand that there is a huge problem in society with the objectification of women. Rows of shelves stacked with magazines showing airbrushed women with naked fake breasts is wrong IMO - it's not natural, but surely some objectification by people of both sexes is natural. The example in the OP seems fairly natural to me. The girls weren't aware of it or affected in any way by it. Is it any different from me walking down the road with female friends, seeing an attractive man and commenting on his appearance after he has walked past? If you go to a televised football match there is a chance you will appear on tv - my brother has been on tv many times - you are putting yourself in a public sphere so people will be looking at you. The girls would've known this when they bought their tickets.

Also, as a black woman I have to take issue with HerBeatitude's comment about the teacher encouraging the boys to laugh at black people. Not the same thing at all IMO.

I don't think that the classroom is an appropriate place for boys to induge their testosterone, egged on by a male role model, no.

Young men don't need any encouragement in that dept, frankly. They are perfectly capable of ogling without needing opportunities to do it in the classroom facilitated by their teachers.

Ah, so there is no quality control eh?

As long as it is about 'feminism' it's good eh?

Who would you recommend he start with then?

Gloria?
Germaine?
Anthea?

Tell you what Moondog?

You're the one making the absurd assertion, why are you asking me to clarify it?

I don't want anyone to stop looking at anyone.

I want people to stop behaving in intimidating, pervy or creepy ways to each other.

A teacher encouraging teenaged boys to ogle girls, in the classroom, is just plain inappropriate.

Moondog he was asking questions which would be answered by virtually any book about feminism he pulled at random off a shelf. I had already tried to answer his question in good faith and he accused me/anyone who answered him of 'shrill bleating'. Under the circumstances I think 'Go and read some feminism' is an entirely justified response.

you had 6 women for dinner last night?

Fuck me. I had spag bol

I've no idea HB.
You tell me.

I see.
They have to park their testosterone at the door do they?

Conversations differ according to who is present.
I had 6 women for dinner last night. We discussed things we wouldn't have dreamt of had our husbands been present.

And why do you think "us lot" want to stop people looking at each other and thinking about fucking each other?

but moondog, the issue is that it wasn't in an appropriate context - he's the teacher, an authority figure, a male role model for those boys. How is that appropriate?

So you see the classroom as an appropriate context do you?

Really?

have nothing to say on the "ogling" incident, sorry. Just don't like the cut of his jib.

I can't bear the way sinister intentions are attributed to normal human behaviour.

People like looking at each other and thinking (however fleetingly) about fucking them. They have done since the dawn of time and will continue to do so despite the efforts of people like you lot.

The only issue is keeping this behaviour in its appropriate context.

Get over it.

god what an odiously pompous little man

sounds like the kind of teacher who really wanted to BE somebody but had no concrete aptitudes or plans, "ended up" in teaching despite having a low opinion of teachers, and carved out a comfortable if cramped niche for himself as a vicious bastard who assuages his disappointment day after day by bullying people smaller than himself

and I bet his head of department is a woman

So what's your argument moondog?

And you seriously beieve that this is appropriate behaviour for the classroom?

Jesus right back at you.

belgianbun - I think he saw the quicksand as social, not moral.

blackcurrants summed it up, I think:

'Here's the thing, Imp: You say yourself that you wouldn't have done it if there had been a female pupil in the room, because of courtesy (you implicitly acknowledge that they would have been made uncomfortable). They would: they would have been uncomfortable to see their peers assessing young women for their attractiveness, because it would have made THEM feel like they are assessed for their attractiveness - reduced to how they look, and yes, the word is 'objectified'. You would not have done this in front of female pupils, because it would have made them feel bad. You insist they would have been WRONG to feel bad, but you still wouldn't have liked it to happen. . Okay.
So this kind of behaviour makes women feel bad, but you were willing to encourage this kind of behaviour in your male pupils. Why?'

So is it always fine for "boys to be boys" if there are no women there to observe what they are doing?