You remember clearly the circumstances under which you first saw "shrill" used in debate?

I am still reading the thread because it's making me laugh now - I love the way you think you know so much about feminism despite the spectacular ignorance displayed in your posts. Go on then, tell us something you know (no Googling, mind.)

re: HerBeatitud
"So did you discuss other aspects of the girls apart from their appearance?"

No, but nor did I discuss their appearance. I didn't discuss them at all.

Imperator

Hope no one minds me jumping in here...

Why did you feel the need to tell your friend about this 'minor incident'?

In my own small opinion, watching the football and noticing a few attractive girls is one thing. Re-winding the tape with the sole purpose of "appreciating" them is another.

And I don't buy the whole "this is human nature so get over it" angle. Sounds a little too familiar to the old 'men can't help themselves when it comes to a pretty girl' kind of thing.

You're a grown man. They are young impressionable boys. You shouldn't have done it.

re: sethstarkaddersmum

Seeing as you can't be bothered, I won't reply to your latest nonsense. but for what it is worth, the first time I saw the word 'shrill' used in debate, it was by a woman describing a man.

The fact is, I probably do know more about feminist theory than you, but it doesn't matter, because you can't be bothered.

No. How old were the girls being ogled.

Your last post says it all TBH. Like it or lump it, male heterosexual culture is the dominant culture, and if you don't like it you can fuck off.

This argument is used for everything

• Page 3
• Covers of nuts zoo etc at child eye-level
• Men openly gawping at women as they try to go about their daily business
• Men touching, groping, shouting at women as they try to go about their daily business

The list goes on.

Lot's of women don't like this stuff, they don't like the way the cameras zoom in on a young woman in a low cut top at wimbledon etc. They don't like being ogled and shouted at and felt up and worse as they go around the place.

The answer, is always, well we (men) like it, so shut up and stop making a fuss. You'll "get over it".

Well guess what, lots of women don't "get over it" and why should they even have to in the first place.

The sort of low level sexist activity that you have condoned in theclassroom is at one end of a spectrum, at the other end are terrible abuses, and in the middle are a range of harrassments that ordinary women have to endure from the day they hit puberty until the day that they are deemed "past it".

What you did was wrong. Simple as that. A throw-away sexist incident which will have confirmed in these boys minds just a little more, their right to treat women in a certian way.

Well done you.

re: TheFallenMadonn
Yes, we were watching football. So what?

So did you discuss other aspects of the girls apart from their appearance?

Imperator - you are incredibly rude, as well as arguing very badly indeed.

I said this was the kind of thing a middle aged perv would say. It is. I did not insinuate that you were a middle aged perv. You may be in your 20s - actually I am hoping this is the excuse for your obvious cluelessness. I was trying to help you to see why your phrasing comes across so badly. But you're being so terribly terribly defensive, you're obviously not in the frame of mind to listen sensibly to anything helpful.

(ROFL @ you saying to HerBeatitude 'Please don't put thoughts into my head that I have not expressed. You are judging me by your own prejudices.' - pot/kettle/black anyone?)

You obviously didn't read my post properly (and you're a teacher? God help us!) because you make great play of informing me that it is normal for boys to look at women and accuse me of being naive about human nature, when I actually stated explicitly that it is normal.

Go and read some feminism, I can't be bothered with arguments at this level - I know full well that some women like to be looked at blah blah blah. When men start calling women 'shrill' for arguing with them it is always a dead giveaway that they know nothing about the issues around feminism and aren't interested in learning.

You were watching football. Not an unreasonable question.

You hadn't answered my question from earlier in the thread...

RE: HerBeatitude
Sorry, but your last post suggests you were in the room. I had no idea you were there.

Not only have you deigned to read my mind, but you now seem to tell me what happened.

But you didn't just look at a girl and think she's pretty.

You fell in with your class's desire to objectify women. You're an educator, you should be leading by example, not getting down with the kids and going along with the mysogynist messages their heads are being stuffed with by the media.

Do you understand that reducing women to what they look like is sexism?

That's where the parallel is. I know the education industry doesn't believe it, but I think sexism and racism are morally equivalent.

RE: ImSoNotTelling
Gay people have to et used to living in a largely heterosexual culture. If they are uncomfortable in this situation, they'll get over it.

I have explained my position regarding women who might have been present, I see no reason to repeat it.

What difference does my age make?

But you didn't just look did you.

You rewound the camera to get a better look - whcih is pandering to your class's wish to reduce the girls to their appearance.

An adult male encouraging teenage boys to ogle girls in the classroom is inappropriate.

Teenage boys do not need any encouragement in that department, they certainly do not need to have it confirmed by an authority / role model figure that leching over women is a great past-time for a man.

I can see however that you are just here for an argument. That's fine.

Feel free to continue leering away with your charges. No-ones going to try and stop you.

Re:HerBeatitude
Sorry, but you have still not explained why it is the same as racism. Why is looking at a girl and thinking, she is pretty, the same as thinking of a black person, he is a stupid criminal because he is black?

Come on, it's your parallel, explain it.

re: HerBeatitude.

"Because boys are being brought up in a porn culture where the objectification of women is if anything, worse than it was 30 years ago. Most boys think most rape allegations are false. Most boys see porn before they have any sexual relationship with a girl. They are already growing up with mysogynist messages about women being there for their use, they don't need those messages re-inforced by their educators."

Sorry, but you are going to have to explain why looking at women is reinforcing a "porn culture". Need I remind you that this was BBC1 and these women had clothes on? I think you are not making a good case for not being shrill here.

Hmmm interesting.

You are certain that gay boys would not be uncomfortable with being in a room with a group of boys and men ogling girls

As it is only natural and something that we all do and nothing to get worked up about

Yet you would not have done it if there was a girl in the room

That doesn't make sense. Either it's fine and natural and why should anyone mind, or it isn't.

I would say that a male teacher joining in ogling girls (how old?) with a gang of teenage boys is pretty creepy actually.

Oh, so you had a conversation with the boys about these girls aspirations, dreams, hopes, personalities, intellectual capabilities as well did you?

Only I thought you'd just ogled them, silly me - sorry, i was being prejudiced, I had no idea you had encouraged the boys in your class to see the girls as full, rounded human beings.

re: HerBeatitude.
I do see the parallel between sexism and racism, per se.

I just don't see how you have made a case for the idea that when a man looks at a woman it is the same as thinking all black people are stupid and criminal. How is it? Explain.

Your argument is weak and the fact that you refer to me as a sexist on the basis that I look at women means that you don't actually understand what sexist means. I suspect, to be honest, that I know more about feminism than you do, as you seem woefully ignorant if it.

I wouldn't have a problem with what happened in OP . I don't understand how a lingering camera moment is belittling.
Would it be belittling if the camera lingered over some cute little children playing in the mud, and a bunch of broody mamas asked to see that again?

I could say that yes women/girls do mostly want 'attention' but this is the attention of a particular person

it is unlikely that those girls were full of joyful anticipation that some teacher and his class would be letching over them, even rewinding their images to get a really good look

there really isn't a place for that in a classroom, I say this as a teacher myself

I don't think I have ever encountered a scenario where I felt compelled to share my appreciation of someone's attractiveness with a class, and I have been teaching 10 years now

re: HerBeatitude
No, I don't. Please don't put thoughts into my head that I have not expressed. You are judging me by your own prejudices.

Thank you.