Headteacher bans skirts as if too short they 'put girls at risk'

ISNT: you seem to be suggesting that this uniform change was in response to a known problem of sexual harassment and that the boys got away with it while the girls had to modify their attire.

Short skirts are inappropriate in schools for reasons (among others) of being sexually attractive attire regardless of whether there has been a related problem of sexual harassment or not.

The Head, however, may have made a completely hamfisted attempt at making this point.

yay millyr!!!!

It seems odd that the thrust of the posts have been to say

1. Yes to having the girls wear trousers or longer skirts

1. No to the reason given ie this will prevent them from being at risk of molestation

And then people seem to keep insisting that the people who say 2. are also arguing that girls must be allowed to wear miniskirts to school. A lot of deliberate misunderstanding seems to be going on here.

I agree with the MN campaign about sexualisation. Young girls should not be sold clothes with sexual messages on or clothes that make their bodies seem more mature than they are, such as push up bras on an 8 year old.

But that is an entirely different thing to a short skirt. There is nothing inherently sexual about a woman showing her legs. Women wear short skirts for many reasons. A woman wearing a short skirt is not declaring that she is more up for it than anyone else. My female cousins go out drinking in their industrial town in short skirts, as do all of their friends. It is just part of the culture. They are not more promiscuous or looking for more attention that a bunch of undergraduate girls in jeans in a student bar. In Cuba, women of all ages wear tiny skirts and yet the number of rapes is tiny (presumably connected to all the feminist laws like it being a crime for a man not to do housework).

Almost all teenagers and preteens from about 9 have an emerging sexual identity. Teenagers may be interested in having relationships with others. Whether girls wear short skirts or trousers, boys have to understand that a girl may have no interest in them, but may have an interest in another boy or girl or nobody at all. How a boy finds out whether the girl is interested in him or not does not need to involve harassment. Adult men need to understand that if a girl is sexual and may display that, this does not make her part of the adult world.

I see boys around all the time wearing their trousers so low that I can see all of their underwear. I have never seen adult women ogling them. I don't think boys should show their underwear at school. I don't think girls should show theirs at school. But that is about having a tidy and formal appearance at school. It is not about protecting anyone.

As I haven't seen the letter from the Head I can't be certain that "with the understanding that if they just lengthened their skirts, then they would be 'safe'." was implied in his letter at all.

Girls, boys, women and men all over the world dress to attract attention.

sorry that was to noblegiraffe's post, thread has moved on

Soooo....

A group of boys or a male teacher likes to sexually harrass teenaged girls in teh school.

The school insist that all skirt lengths are lowered by 2 inches.

All sexual harrassment ceases immediately!

Really?

but we arent arguing that the girls arent shortening their skirts to attract attention BBH, clearly they are.

we are arguing that the headteacher has equated girls wearing short skirts with potential sexual violence being perptrated against them, with the understanding that if they just lengthened their skirts, then they would be 'safe'.

its bullshit.

and its a super slippery slope you are on where you say girls are asking for the attention.

because lets face it, asking for attention is only a short step from just plain 'asking for it' isnt it.

It's not about demonising.

I have children of both genders, and I am equally concerned about premature sexualisation of my boys.

I think music videos, for example, push a very mercenary and cold sexuality onto young men - which bears no resembelance to the insecure and vulnerable young boys I remember hanging around by the hi-fi at teenage parties.

Like custy said, whatever natural exploration takes place at this age, schools should maintain boundaries to protect their pupils and allow them to mature at their own pace, without overshadowing their education.

Your GCSE grades will stay with you longer than Jake from 12A.

And this is what I do not understand:

Posters who get incensed and outraged at women in the public eye wearing tight or revealing clothes in the course of their jobs, but yet hypocritcally defending the right of teenage girls to wear incredibly short skirts. Short skirts are revealing. They reveal the legs and thighs. I do not for one minute think teenage girls wearing short skirts are not out to attract attention. If they didn't want attention they would wear the skirts at the correct length.

As the mother of a boy who will be a teenager one day can I just point out that this thread is very heavy on demonising all heterosexual teenage boys.

frik - short skirts as the norm in a school do send a subliminal message. The message is: "I want men to find me pleasing". This undermines the purpose of going to school - to gain knowledge, independence and self-respect.

Children do need protecting from adult concerns cutting short their education and development.

Sakura, there was a comment earlier "The way to make girls safe [from unwanted sexual attention], is to make sure that boys and male teachers aren't allowed to harrass them."

which suggested to me that girls should be free to wear the short skirts and the boys (and male teachers ) reaction to the short skirts should be dealt with instead.

Like I said, short skirts attract sexual attention. It is hard to argue that this is not a motive for at least some of the girls to wear them like that....wanting Jake in 12A to find them hot. How do you tackle the attitudes of boys who see a short skirt as an invitation to sexual attention when it is an invitation to sexual attention, just not from them?

And I completely agree fwiw with those that say we should tackle the attitudes of the men and boys who see girls in short skirts as being "up for it", but I wonder whether in turn, our own attitudes to this have meant that today's teenage girls feel that they have to be seen to be permanently "up for it" as to be anything else makes them frigid and prudish (just going by the girls' attitudes on the programme as mentioned earlier)? I don't know and I suspect I'm rambling as I don't express myself very well abouth things like this.

noblegiraffe, we all know that. we agree with you on that. we disagree with the headmaster's sexist reasoning.

14 was when I started my period, awoke sexually and began taking an interest in boys. The age may vary for different girls, but the difference between that and the mumsnet campaign is that my mother wasn't dressing me ways that were sexually appealing to boys, I was dressing myself that way.
The mumsnet campaign is not about stunting girls' sexuality; it's about not dressing little girls up as though they have a sexuality, when they haven't even got one.

Dittany, my classroom is not a hotbed of sexual harassment. What goes on outside it is, of course, harder to police as it requires students to report what is going on.

"Girls wear short skirts IME ... possibly in the hope that Jake in 12A will think they look fit."

Exactly. A short skirt attracts sexual attention. While this is different to 'invites sexual harassment' it still means that it has no place in a school environment.

I say 14

I certainly rolled up my skirt for myself (all girls school) but only to just above the knee .

Have never shaved my pubes though but YKWIM.

I'm just interested in others' opinions as to at what age our attitudes change over from "this is wrong, you're only a child and we must protect you - bad retailers for selling boob tubes to children" to "wear what you like, when you like, even if it's a skirt like a belt"? 11? 12?

agree frik

goldenticket, did you really shave off your pubes and roll up your skirt for yourself??

I'm interested as to what age the MN campaign would cease to be applicable?

FWIW, I watched the first of a series called "The Sex Education Show" (iirc) on Channel 4 a while back. It certainly seemed that teenage boys are by far the biggest problem facing teenage girls - the attitudes of the girls on the show made me utterly despair. Whereas our generation may well have shaved off our pubes and rolled up our skirts for ourselves, today's teenage girls appear to do it all for the boys "because that's what's expected" and the boys know it. We have to address this urgently and teeny skirts are just a part of it.

oh my god this is exhausting.

no one is arguing with the premise that girls should stick to the uniform rule.

we are arguing that telling everyone that the REASON for making girls cover up is to PROTECT them and help ameliorate the 'subliminal messages' they may be sending is outrageously sexist, and damaging and just plain fucking wrong.