Sexism and Racism - comparable?

Good post Blackcurrants.

One of the ways that I saw sexism and racism play out most starkly was during the American Presidential election in 2008.
When candidate Hilary Clinton was speaking at a rally some man shouted out "Iron my shirt!" and the press pretty much laughed about it, Clinton was told that she'd have to be tough if she wanted to be in politics.
I said to a friend that if it had been candidate Barak Obama speaking, and a man had shouted out "Pick my cotton!" - that man would have been ostracized by those with him, criticized by all but the most rabidly rightwing and racist press, and possibly arrested.

I think it's harder to point to sexism and explain it as systematic oppression, than it is to point at racism and say "this is systematic oppression" - party because everyone knows that not all black/white/hispanic/jewish/x people are "like that" but yet will still say "oh but women ARE more emotional/less rational/more bitchy/less willing to work/xbehaviour than men!" in a surprised tone when you challenge them. People still believe the myths about gender as if they were true, because we're less good at clearly delineating when and how things are sexist.

And yes, possibly because sexism has been around for longer and is deeper ingrained, it is more accepted. Has anyone read "A Brief History of Misogyny, the world's oldest prejudice" ? That's a cracking good book.

Well the myths around gender have been around for a lot longer I suppose.

Racism was only invented with the advent of slavery, xenophobia with the rise of the nation state. Both of which are far more recent than patriarchy.

It is also more acceptable to declare "I am a sexist" than "I am a racist".

Both are about dehumanising one section of humanity, but the latter is greeted with silent discomfort and disapproval, while the former is greeted with mild amusement and cameraderie.

True enough - sometimes I just can't stretch my mind to take in the many and various torments that sexism/racism have brought to people's lives - one at a time let alone both at once.

That's interesting swallowedafly - I know there is some controversial history connecting racism and feminism but I don't know what it is because I am fick. God I don't think "black and white women's experiences of the world were so different that their differences through racial experience were greater than their similarities through gender". Not on a domestic level at least - if you're being beaten up by your partner it doesn't usually matter what colour you are, I would think. Socially there are going to be differences, obviously, especially back in the 1970s but even now.

sorry that link looks buggered: Several people made this analogy on this thread and I fleshed it out a bit (Tue 25-May-10 14:53:40) with mixed results.
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Several people made this analogy on hread]][[http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/970871-DH-says-I-39-ve-turned-him-into-a-chauvini st this t and I fleshed it out a bit (Tue 25-May-10 14:53:40) with mixed results.

I felt I had to apologise if I had stirred up unpleasant memories for the OP, because who knows what experiences people have had. But I still think it is a valid comparison, as long as you remember that racism is not "over" (and many people deal with it every day), just less socially acceptable than sexism currently.

In the example you mention I think it was a totally fair point.

One reason why I think people find it hard to swallow is that racism is often characterised by segregation - white people on this side of town, black people on that - whereas most households have both men and women living in them, with at least an appearance of co-operation. Having to take on the fact that someone you live with, someone you love, may believe you to be fundamentally sub-human - it must be a hard one to swallow, when there is every practical and emotional reason to try your damnedest to disbelieve it.

yes, there are obvious parallels. There have been times and places in history when the fight to improve things for one group has supported another, and times when they haven't.
equality is about everyone being treated equally regardless of race, sex, sexuality etc. The examples you give is very relevant - i.e. black people and women have both been treated as chattels in particular circumstances.

I am not sure about this comparison either.

Certainly around the world there are plenty of places where black men are in charge - none where women are the bosses.

Also President Obama is the president of america - they have never had a female president.

I also agree that if you really wnated to change from black to white, given time and money you could have a bash at it. And people don't have gender reassignment surgery to escape discrimination (AFAIK) - the fact is that people who have had gender reassignment surgery are, I'm sure, more likely to be discriminated against than either men or women.

msrisotto, very interesting topic, to compare sexism and racism.

At the risk of appearing simplistic (which isn't my intention!), I think it is instructive to imagine a test case, wondering who might get the "worse" deal, e.g. a black man or a white woman? A woman could change her sex to male through gender reassignment, but what could a black man do? Women are very occasionally given the status of "honourary man" e.g. the Queen and Margaret Thatcher on some state occasions in countries where attendance would usually be male only. I can't recall a black man being given "honourary white" status. (Barack Obama is half white and only half black but almost everyone treats him as black). I think all that may point towards it being harder for people to overcome racism than sexism. Does that make one worse than the other? Both are very bad.

Then we have to consider specific cases versus averages, of course.

Totally agree with that millyr

I think the current situation of racism in our society is that most people have no intention of really challenging the economic and social inequalities between white people and everybody else, almost everyone is agreed that calling people names or attacking them for not being white is wrong. Almost everybody also agrees that there is no real difference between people with different skin pigmentation, although of course they used to believe that white people were innately cleverer and born to lead.

The current situation with sexism is that most people have no intention of really challenging the economic and social inequalities between men and women, and attacking or calling a woman names because she is a woman are not taken very seriously (rape conviction rapes, domestic violence) and many people still believe that being a woman is a real difference beyond sexual organs, and that women are not as clever (Maths, Science) and are not born to lead.

I think there is an argument that being from a minority group + beign female = double whammy.

I think it may be easier for people to see that something is "bad" when it is happening to a small minority. Or is happening elsewhere and is totally out of kilter with our society's ideas of what is acceptable.

Prejudice and discrimination against women is so ingrained in our culture that it's just a background noise that people don't notice, especially given that so many poeple are affected, there is no-one on the "outside" to point out what is really going on IYSWIM.

All very sad.

Have just had a missive from DC's school - an anti bullying and anti racism drive adn they want volunteers for the action group.

No anti sexism drive of course.