Sexism and Racism - comparable?

This is all very interesting stuff. I don't have anything useful to add though.

I remember discussing this with a coloured (his description) male back in sixth form. I mentioned that it took me ages to get teachers to realise that I was bright at science and maths as I was female (and small and young looking), how I hated being written off before people got to know me and whether he struggled with peoples misconceptions because of his colour. I immediately got into a heated argument about how I couldn't know/wasn't allowed to feel (victimised isn't the right word but can't think of the correct one ) against and how dare I draw comparisons to racism. Followed by have I experienced X, Y and Z and countered with etc. etc. All the other females just sat there in awkard silence (he was the only male in the room). IMO he was a sexist as well.

Ever since I've always been to scared to make/skirt anywhere near the comparison again.

SweetDreamerGirl

You might be interested in the work of the The Combahee River Collective.

Having the contents of this thread whirling around in the back of my mind for a few days got me thinking about the differences between anti-sexist and anti-racist campaigning, and the successes and failures of both.

I am a white woman with very little personal experience of racism but plenty of experience of misogyny and anti-feminist sentiment. I mention that to let others understand that I am at the earlier stages of trying to improve my awareness of racism issues, so apologies for any oversimplification. I posted earlier in the thread but fear I was hopelessly naive on the racism issues.

It strikes me as very significant that, although racism and sexism are both really bad problems in society, society's reaction has been different. Anti-racists seem to have been more effective in getting the majority of the public to believe that racism is a bad thing despite the non-white population of the UK being very much a minority. For example, non-white people made up only 9.1% of the UK population at the 2001 census. I couldn?t even find the percentage of females in the UK at the 2001 census! I think that tells it?s own story. A UK Government 2001 non-census estimate for England and Wales estimated 51.1% of the population of those two countries were female.

I hope feminism can learn some tips and tricks from anti-racists to help improve the situation for women. What have anti-racism activists done to achieve their success for a small minority of the population that anti-sexism activists have not been able to achieve for the majority of the population? Is it something to do with minorities? More guilt/shame perhaps? Has any/more progress come for women when women have been percieved as a minority, which we are not in reality? Should feminists play the "minority" card more often when lobbying those in power?

SDG, sorry I thought that from the context it was obvious that I was talking about the trans atlantic slave trade, not slavery in general.

I remember at about the age of 14 being shocked when I realised that black men could be sexist. Until then I assumed they just wouldn't be. I just assumed they had a consciousness about them and understood what it was like to be oppressed, and were able to identify with the chains that come with being associated with a slave class.
Then I found that in lots of cultures around the world, and in Western countries too, that black men were sexist.
It blew me away.
I realised that men see themselves as men first and foremost, and women will always be 'the other'.

When facing racism you can say 'this is wrong because people of different races are not fundamentally different'.

When facing sexism this is harder because in the majority of cases there is a difference between any randomly chosen man and a randomyl chosen woman. Then we have to make the case that even though these people are different, they are of equal value and should not be treated or respected differently.

If you visibly do not belong to one of the 'standard' combinations of genes/self-identity then I imagine you have far more issues of bigotry to deal with than just standard sexism. If your differences are 'invisible' then sexist people will treat you however you appear to be.

HerBeatitude wrote "Racism was only invented with the advent of slavery, xenophobia with the rise of the nation state. Both of which are far more recent than patriarchy."

Slavery has been around since at least the start of recorded history, and if I understand you correctly, by your logic therefore so has racism.

Whether patriarchy was around long before slavery, who can say?

trilliAnasTra wrote "There are actually some fairly obvious genetic differences between the sexes. If you gave a scientist a few DNA samples they'd be hard-pressed to determine the race of the people involved, but pretty certain on the sex."

Those scientists should carefully consider various intersex conditions that occur on the chomosomal/DNA level before they come to any "decision".

There are people who have been raised from birth as female and treated unquestioningly by everyone as female, yet they have XY chomosomes (genetically male). There are other people who have been raised from birth as male and treated unquestioningly by everyone as male, yet they have XX chomosomes (genetically female). Gender is even more of a social construct than most people realise. Medical science recognises a whole spectrum of physical outward appeareance/DNA combinations.

I'm so glad you added the second comment trilliAnasTra as I couldn't even think of a response to the first

(playing Devil's Advocate obviously)

There are actually some fairly obvious genetic differences between the sexes. If you gave a scientist a few DNA samples they'd be hard-pressed to determine the race of the people involved, but pretty certain on the sex.

So in theory there is much more basis for treating men and women differently than treating people of different racces differently, because there is actually a real difference between them.

Racism and Sexism are both systems of inequality and discrimination. Feminism and Anti-racism are partly to do with examining and exposing systems of power, so there are a lot of similarities.

Just wanted to pick up on an earlier comment:

And people don't have gender reassignment surgery to escape discrimination (AFAIK) - the fact is that people who have had gender reassignment surgery are, I'm sure, more likely to be discriminated against than either men or women.

A man or a woman who has undergone gender reassignment surgery is a man or a woman. This comment is written as if they are something other. I don't know if you know of the term 'cisgender' which is when you are born the same sex and gender. So the last sentence of the comment above would make sense if it had been written 'more likely to be discriminated against than either cis men or cis women.

Perhaps it is to do with proximity to privilege.
Some of the things that have been denied to certain races by following slavery, colonialism etc are the same things like women have been denied too. But if a woman lives in the same house as a man she is perceived to benefit from the privileges that he has.

OK, not all marriages are like this now, but:

He has his name - she is allowed to use it (forced in fact)
His name bears a family history, which becomes hers (and erases her own - where is the marker of multi-generational women's history)
He has a good job, and she lives off the salary (while dependent on his goodwill for every penny that she spends and having no control over the type or amount of work that she must do)
They can decide where and how they are going to live because he is qualified and entitled to work and buy / rent property anywhere (but traditionally a male head of the house makes all these decisions)

I know times have changed, but I think something lingers on from all this - not least among some women a difficulty with challenging the status quo because of a sense of what side your bread is buttered (not within a marriage so much as within society)

mmm..racism or sexism??
The term ?ethnic minority? may encompass a wide rage of perspectives and experiences, so I cannot speak for all these adequately but being black is associated with histories of racism, slavery, colonialism, oppression, racial inferiority etcetera. Many commentators on racism tend to focus on black men as a unique experience. Yet, as a black woman, all the negative stereotypes are further compounded by sexism and misogyny from both white men and black men.

I agree with your last point, swallowedaAfly, about identity; with whom would a black woman identify, a white woman with whom one shares gender affinity but may associate with racial prejudice, or the black, sexist man (Obviously not all white women would be racist and not all black men would be sexist).

Apologies for the rather long post.

hmmm. Am willing to buy that argument blackcurrants. Drag queens are a whole thread really, aren't they.

I don't really know. As a black woman I experience both sides to it. Not sure which is worse, i would rather not have to deal with either.

I'm not so sure, on Drag Queens. I think they parody the constructs of femininity (the big hair, the silly restrictive clothing, the heels, the paint) rather than women. Oddly I think Drag Queens can be subversive - they can say "Look! I do all the things that society requires women do... so does that make me 'feminine' then?" - I think sometimes it can be an interesting way of thinking about what we believe constitutes correct gender appearance.

That said, I do get jealous of their lovely, fat-free thighs! ;)

wahwah - v. good point about drag queens.

It is taking the piss out of women

I don't think there is a hierarchy of oppression, but I
agree that sexism can be 'joked' about in a way that thankfully is seen as inappropriate for racism.

It may be completely mad of me, but I find myself furious when I see children being separated by gender for competitions at school or on tv. Why are we still encouraging boys and girls to do this, we'd never make this split along perceived racial differences?

And also, what's the difference between drag and the whole minstrel thing?

or more damaging

In fact, there was that cartoon of Barack Obama with some watermelons (can't remember in what mag) - which plays up to racial prejudice apparently, and I think there was a big fuss about that. Not saying racism is better or worse of more damaging or whatever than sexism - they are both just shit basically - but there is a greater sensitivity to racism in UK/US these days, for definite. I mean sensitivity in a good way btw.

sAf - and not many people stand up and say that witch hunts were one of the greatest mass-killings in history, and unquestionably a sexist phenomenon (yy some men died too, but nearly all victims were women)