On the subject of apperance/being good-looking

But if that was true we wouldn't surely have such strong cultural variation would we? Being fat is considered the most attractive in some cultures, being thin in others - if it was instinctual surely that wouldn't be the case.

Also there is a wide variation in what we as individuals find attractive - for example what I find physically attractive is height, strong colouring and beards, but I suspect that is entirely my personal preference, plus the cultural/familial preference.

Finally I really have to agree with Dittany on the advertising/fashion/everything else world. Yes there is an increased presence of the "good looking and fit man" and pressure on boys to look good is increasing, but it's a mile away from the pressure on women. Just look at pretty much any magazine, film or TV show and spot the numbers of ordinary looking man compared to the ordinary looking woman. Or the size of the male cosmetic industry compared to the female, or the volume of surgery on women as opposed to men. Sure the male side is growing, and I'm sure the marketeers would love to have men as paranoid as women if it made them money, but we are a long way off yet.

I'd not condemn a good looking person purely for looking good looking though. I might feel that someone who spent hours on their appearance was vain and could spend their time more productively, or that someone who got their achievements purely through exploiting their looks as shallow.

Dittany they are the images.They are not necessarily what women aspire to. As for evolution - we are taller than we were 100 or so years ago. Go to Wordsworth's house in the Lake District - the doors are tiny. My point was that in caveman times the most attractive, healthiest women would have bred with the alpha males. Education and wit etc wouldn't have come into it. We know that we still have instincts fron cavemen - flight or fight for instance - cavemen were able to recognise whether a group of invaders were small enough to fight or so large they should run away even though they couldn't count. We are born with that instinct today.

Dittany - 'It's also ablist and racist' You forgot to add ageist to your list. Think of all the women presenters/actors/singers/cabin crew/receptionists who are put out to grass when they start to look older [and therefore in today's society unattractive]. Some people - male and female - actually, to my eye, are better looking when older, or have the luck to remain younger looking for longer. Our society whilst accepting that older men can be handsome does not extend the same judgement to older women. I am not a fan of 'mutton dressed as lamb' but see around me, on a daily basis fine, stylish, beautiful women, smiley, white haired 'everyone's favourite granny' types, indeed all sorts of older women who are easy on the eye.

My main objection to the pressure put upon women to conform to a standard idea of female beauty is the wasted time and money that is expended in pursuit of this objective, without even taking into account the pain, worry, shame and stress that it engenders.

And men can be anorexic as well.

anorexia is a mental illness isn't it?

dittany, anorexia isn't primarily about media/societal influence...it is much more about family dynamics ime and imo.

This whole thread need a

Natural beauty is all about symmetry, and things that biologically draw one person to another. Anything aside from that is media influence (silicone boobs, plastic lips etc)

there is a pressure for women to look a certain way - there really is.

but cornsilk brought a good point up - genetically speaking are we kind of programmed ( not all of us but most) to like a certain form?

i mean do we have it in us from being cavemen to prefer a 'healthy' thinner form for the purposes of procreation?

dittany, try telling someone hooked on steroids the the drive to look strong is not as unhealthy as the drive to look thin.

people die of that too you know.

i'm not for second denying that women are under more pressure in this respect, but men are catching up and i htink the roots of this are buy buy buy.
consumerism running rife again.

There was a great mag for women about 10 years ago - anyone remember Frank? Not a feminist mag (I used to read Ms. before it went under) but Frank had some interesting/ cerebral articles and any fashion ads were subverted with boxes over the women#s faces or obscured in some way through frosted glass/ shower curtains or some such.

Although I rarely buy them...read them at the hairdresser though.

I like the mags. I know that the women in them are not realistic - it's all airbrushing and make-up.

I have never ever bought a woman's mag for this very reason. I don't conform to the "norm" (so if the natural selection theory were strictly true, I wouldn't be here!)

But I've seen these mags in staffrooms, friends' bathrooms and I can't help myself but look. Always feel dirty after...

dittany i'm not entirely sure that you're right on this one...i think that this is a consumerism lead prerogative, and i suppose if you believe that consumerism and patriarchy are inextricably linked then maybe...but there are guys out there having implants to get a six pack, so it's not just women who have body dysmorphia as a result of relentless societal pressure to conform to a pornographied body type (in the west).

having said that people have always self mutilated to conform to a culturally based idea of beauty...look at the incredibly painful process of tatooing with a lemon thorn (on the face, legs, abdomen etc) in the pacific.

Dittany look at the men on the ads for razors, shaving foam etc. They are not short and fat.