Why some women don't identify with feminism

I think it's because women already have a picture of what feminists look like, and it's a stereotype, so if they stick their toes into the water, and along comes a big scary feminist, well, there goes your proof that feminism is scary [fill in preconceived idea]

Pogleswood: good point. I think you see people similarly frustrated at that conflation of one-and-all in those threads, too.

And yet if people feel like they belong but some of the rules need changing (eg my contraception-using catholic friends) they don't say "Catholicism doesn't have anything for me, I can't call myself a Catholic" - they tend to say "I'm a Catholic but I don't follow all church teaching" or something along those lines. But that's because the faiths (even the ones who aren't traditionally large powerbases in the UK or the west) have a LOT more power than a scrappy little underdog movement like feminism.

Also, MillyR, as perhaps a better example than my catholic friends, and as an example of why no one feminist or group of feminists are representative of all feminists: I suspect dittany and I would probably disagree on some stuff, and yet we'd both fully accept-and-defend each other's self-definition as feminists.

(for the record, I suspect that I'm a bit more wishy-washy, next-generation, handwring-y about sex work and porn than she might be. Not certain, but .. it's probable. Maybe one day we'll have a thread where we go at it hammer and tongs and she demonstrates that I don't really know what I'm talking about cos I haven't thought it through yet.) And yet, I'm sure neither of us would say the other one isn't a feminist. Neither of us would say the other one "shouldn't" call themselves a feminist.

After all, We're working for the same goal, against the same problems. And gosh, do we ever realise that one of the patriarchy's best and brightest moments has been persuading women to fight amongst themselves for scraps, and to reinforce patriarchal teachings through shame and mockery, rather than, y'know, fight the oppression.

I just came to this thread from this one www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/951272-Proponents-of-39-equality-feminism-39-convince-me-that-men ?pg=11 where the debate was really about whether the home sphere should be kept male free so women can be good at it whilst men go out and ern big bucks. I argued the opposite - that the more men wield mops and colelct children from school the better so women can take their rightful place in the world of work whilst sharing things at home. I am 100% sure my position is right.

I don't use the word femininst about myself because it's become sullied. What I saw are things that most men and women agree with - that all it really means is equality under the law something we just about have in the UK but not on much of the planet yet and fairness at home (the main battleground). That's all. I always worked full time and enjoyed a large family and the key to that for most of us is fairness at home. I like men. Most men aren't sexist and plenty are really good fathers.

The other thread did also give good space to my view though that roman women with slaves, women in the 15900s in the UK with wet nurses, rich indians in Africa and most housewives and working wives today who have money will and always have outsourced dull stuff like toilet cleaning and hours and hours of childcare because it is ... wait for it...deadly dull. I certainly stand by taht and anyone who thinks cleaning my loos is fun work or changing the twin babies for the 12th time that day is a great way to spend their time must have had a lobotomy. of course if the only career they'd ever had would have been as chicken plucker may be it's more fun dealing with the babies' rear ends but plenty of us are beyond the chicken plucking career end of things. All good fun.

I also said on the other side have fun. Life is fun. Don't be fed up and whinge. If you don't like things change them. There's pleasure in all sorts of things... perhaps even chicken plucking and nappy changing... may be.. in small doses.

Because when the only conversations you come across about feminism are on mn and there are a few voices that shout louder than others on every thread. (thats not a slating, good for them for shouting about what they believe in)

"I'm confused as to why one or two feminists are taken as representation of a whole movement, when that NEVER, EVER happens to anyone else. Doesn't that make anyone else suspicious?"

Actually this happens on the religion based threads all the time...

for the first time reading this thread I smiled ""I'm a feminist because I don't want anyone giving a man a medal for a job I'm expected to do without any praise at all." It's insulting to women AND men, this patriarchy nonsense. "

I like to think that instead of dragging others down I want to pull myself up.

Sofor example instead of dh not being praised for childcare I want to be praised for it too

Blackcurrants bloody brilliant post.

MillyR aww c'mon, you can still be a feminist and not agree with any of us! I mean, I know people who say they're catholics but use contraception and think this present pope is FULL OF IT. . . . surely if they can do that (the naughty things) we can accept that maybe feminism has a wide, wide remit, too?

bronze: yeah, it's on my mind a lot too (pregnant!) at the moment. DH LOVES kids, he's wanted them for years (heh, yonks before I was ready) and is absolutely sweet and patient with them, which I'm not, always . He's going to do a lot more hands-on-stuff with the LO than I am, at least after the first six months, because of the way our jobs work (and the fact that I get NO maternity leave. NONE) - and yet he will be a saint for it, and I will be some demon-fiend for leaving her PFB. If it was the other way around, he'd not be evil for not being the main caregiver, it would be what's expected. . . he's the first to say that the system's a crock of shit.

Hah, so perhaps it boils down to "I'm a feminist because I don't want anyone giving a man a medal for a job I'm expected to do without any praise at all." It's insulting to women AND men, this patriarchy nonsense.

I agree with Blackcurrants. I am also perfectly happy to say to anyone in RL or or MN that we live in a patriarchal society that oppresses women, and I think that is wrong. But that doesn't change the fact that in this MN section, I seem to be in disagreement with most of the people posting. As a consequence it seems untruthful to call myself a feminist.

Well it's 11pm here so I'm off to bed.

blackcurrant thansk for that post
it also acknowledged something that bugs me "Why does my DH get so much praise for changing his niece's nappy, and me none? DH's not a sexist oppressor, but he does benefit from the expectation that men-don't-do-nappies, etc. He happens to be pro-feminist and find that attitude appalling, but he still gets the applause for being a decent human being because he's a man in the patriarchy. Not fair for him, either. It's a rubbish system, and we should scrap it grin
"

Excellent post,Blackcurrants!

Amber that goes back to my first point on this thread which is that many women are very happy to enjoy the results of feminism without being bothered to actually support or fight for those rights themselves.

blackcurrants you are fab

And I salute you, Tortoise and Dittany, for flying the flag under some really scurrilous and frustating attacks.
I'd have been on earlier with my can't-be-conscise-to-save-my-life-y-ness, but I'm 5 hours behind you crazy kids, and so it's only 9am. Woooah! Feminism at 9am! I'd better wake up my oppressor/rapist and offer him breakfast in bed

aaah since posting my monster-thesis-comment I can see that the people I was trying to respond to have probably gone.

Oops. Well, I suspect most people who read it knew it anyway. But, erm. . . let's still all get some jaffacakes, eh?