Why some women don't identify with feminism

Sorry got a bit ranty there.

Hope that hasn't put anyone off.

I have never had anyone say I "can't" be a feminist, and i know I disagree with the grand high poobah of feminism on at least one quite important issue.

IMO anyone who wants to see an end to sexism, here and around the world, and all of the things that leads to, is a feminist.

Maybe people would be more likely to subscribe to a label of "anti-sexism"?

As for women not being systematically disadvantaged - I can see it here in the UK and I have experienced it.

And if not in the UK - surely people can see that across the world there is a problem with women being kept down?

When people saw apartheid in SA - they didn't say that it wasn't happening in the UK so why care/get involved/label oneself as anti-apartheid. Yet if women around teh world are having a terrible time people don't want to align themselves with teh people who want to change things and make them better?

Plus teh arguments against women being systematically disadvantaged in the UK wind me up no end. For eg when the fact that women earn less than men at all ages etc etc is mentioned people say (in short):
Women are not as ambitious as men
Women are biologically programmed to mate, breed and raise children and earning money/being successful is just not very important to them
Women prefer low paid local jobs
Women get satisfaction from low paid menial jobs
Women are a bit thick and don't cut it
and stuff like that. Dressed up in more flowery language but that is what it boils down to.

Do people really believe this? Even when reports and studys have shown time and time again that pay differentials are due to sexism?

Then the argument that if individual women are low paid it is their fault for not playing the game properly rather than the fault of their large powerful empoyer cheating them. Really?

I don't ever hear anyone say "I'm not an anti-racist beause I think issues like poverty, homophobia and specific forms of racism like anti-semitism are really important as well." They know that you can be anti-racist and care about other stuff, just as with feminism.

Sometimes people don't want to self-identify as feminist because they are afraid that a whole load of tossers other people will instantly assume that they believe a whole load of stuff that they may or may not. If you say you're anti-racist, no-one immediately loads a whole load of other baggage on you, they simply accept that you don't hold with racism. Whereas with feminism, they immediately start demanding to know which "brand" you adhere to - because they are hostile to it. I've only ever been quizzed about what form of feminism I adhere to, by people who are hostile to feminism. Other feminists don't start demanding doctrinal clarity from me.
And it's only ever anti-feminists who say "you can't be a feminist because..." because they desperately want reasons as to why people shouldn't/ can't be feminists.

It's an interesting comment about male nurses. No, I don't judge a male nurse, although it was very challenging a few weeks ago when we were at Children's Hospital and all the medical people were wearing blue scrubs. I realized though it didn't really matter who was the nurse/doctor as both were perfectly capable of medically helping DD.

It wasn't so much male = doctor and female = nurse as general confusion because I didn't know who was who!

It's a real shame that you've been put off by those people, Kaloki. Don't know what else I can say about that, other than - once again - where the heck are all these feminists hanging out?!

"Really? Where? Are you seeing many examples of that on this thread?"

Not on this thread no. Thankfully. But I have heard (more times than I care to count) "you cannot be feminist because.."

Molesworth, I suspect 'systematically disadvantaged' is where I would probably diverge as to the degree.

Agree with Xenia's baseline definition.

Yes, there is disagreement among feminists about the nature and extent of the problems which keep women down and therefore what the solutions might be, but the common ground is the understanding that women are systematically disadvantaged, that this is unfair and that something needs to be done about it. Pretty simple really.

There's no legal definition but if you want to encourage more women to stay at home and serve men it's stretchign it a bit to say that's femininst.
I suspect all feminists would agree we want men and women to have equal rights under the law and fairness at home. That's how I define what I am as core beliefs on these issues.

Fluffles I totally agree.

And Dittany she is using "blah blah" rather than filling in the blanks, I assume, because to fill in the blanks would be a whole new conversation. Rather than because she thinks things don't matter.

There seems to be checklist of what you must and mustn't think before you are "allowed" to call yourself a feminist. Whereas if you say you believe in equality then it's easily understandable and nobody questions whether you do or not.

Ditto ISNT

Thinking about it, when I was working in IT I was often the only woman in my workplace, so that might explain it!

Same here molesworth.

I think I must have been drinking in teh wrong places. I also think I spent rather too much time talking to men

These days of course I never go out...

The people are on these threads ...

Can self-declared feminists actually agree on what it is? I have yet to see any real consensus on these threads.

Where are all these feminists that people meet and get so put off by?! Seriously, I've hardly met any women who want to talk about feminism. That's why I'm so grateful for this topic!

Oh dear fluffles.

That's not good!

When we started this topic we all mooted the idea of a "feminism basics" thread for people who weren't sure what they thought/were trying to get to grips with it all/didn't know all teh lingo and hadn't read all the books etc.

i wonder what happened to that

I feel the same fluffles-you are not alone.

Too right, fluffles.

Feminism can sometimes be rather intimidating to women. Put a foot wrong and somehow I am not the right Brand Feminist.

I frankly don't care enough to wear the label to defend it. But I know what I believe.

to answer the OP - i personally find it too scary to even enter into these discussions here or in RL as the response in my experience seems to be either:
"how can you possibly not call yourself a feminist when blah blah..."
or
"how dare you call yourself a feminst when you then say/do blah blah..."

to be honest, it's safer to just keep quiet

What else is there to do?

I admit that when I give to charity I focus on charities for women and children. Things like the fistula hospital or helping women who have been subjected to vile impositions.

I don't see that I am thus depriving other opressed groups a disservice. Women make up 50% of the population of the world and a lot of them have an utterly shitty time - and what happens to them most directly impacts the children as well. As a group they are the argest oppressed group in the world. Take any oppressed group - and you will usually find that of that oppressed group the women and children have it the worst of all. So I give my money to them.

Every time I refuse to be browbeaten by an aggressive assertive man at work, or give a man who tries to impose his unwanted company on me short shrift rather than giggling prettily, or undertake to study or be openly good at something that is a "male" thing, then I am doing a little bit for feminism, IMO.

Women who are bold and proud and successful and confident and don't take any shit are making a feminist stand for all women just by being.

Women who leave abusive men, or who refuse to be financially kept down when they take time out to raise the children, or who won't be treated like a doormat - they are all taking feminist action - even though they may not realise it. Becuase the more women who stand up and say "i will not be treated like this" does that little bit to erode the idea that that behaviour is acceptabele in the first place.

IMO.