Why some women don't identify with feminism

What I mean is that the women are being paid less from entry level all the way up through the ranks.

ali how can yuo say on the one hand that you don't know what feminism is all about and on teh other hand have a thread about people being sexist about secretaries. That is a bit confusing!

Oops www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/spconf/167/167we77.htm

A bit more on women in politics:

www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/spconf/167/167we77.htm

I was paid less than the men for doing the same hours in the same job at the same level.

Forget the business about women being paid less as they go part time, take time out to have children, take lower paid local jobs after children etc.

In plenty of industries women are paid less than their male counterparts for doing exactly the same work.

In the sector I was in, the gender pay gap is 40%. It is an industry where actually women are fairly well represented up to middle management and many men do entry level jobs. So they are managing a 40% gap even with a fairly even split of genders in the low and medium paid jobs.

thanks for the rapid clarification!

it is complicated. I would certainly agree taht there are more women in the admin/clerical jobs, so there will be a pay gap. But women at any level will get paid the same as a man at the same level. There are surprisingly few women academics in my department, but is this their choice? I am happy at my current level, enjoy my work and could potentially go for promotion. However, I enjoy my current work-life balance, am lucky enough to enjoy a comfortable salary and therefore am in no particular hurry to go for a higher level post. It comes back to this issue of choice, and this is where, to me, the issue becomes hazy. Is the pay gap there because women are just choosing to not take the jobs or is there really a barrier preventing them?

Roo, on the pay gap issue, here's an example (from academia):

"A PAY divide still exists between men and women working at Cambridge University, a new report has shown.

The latest equal pay review found the average salary taken home by male employees is £38,703 ? £9,000 more than the average for women at £29,772.

The report reveals just over half ? 51 per cent ? of the jobs are taken up by men, who dominate the more senior positions, with more women in lower-paid positions.

It revealed 60 per cent of positions at the lowest level ? grade one ? are held by women, compared to just 14 per cent of jobs in the top grade 12 band. "

www.cambridge-news.co.uk/Cambridge/Gender-pay-gap-at-Uni.htm

I'm not Molesworth, but on your point Roo about women in parliament, I recall reading that for a lot of women, the late nights and need to be away from home meant that they had to choose between politics and family. The assumption is that there will be a 'wife' at home to keep the home fires burning.

I would consider myself a feminist.

Out of genuine curiosity though Molesworth, why are women being paid on average less? I can only presume it is because the work they do is not equivalent to what men are. I work in academia and get paid exactly the same as my male colleagues. Equal work = equal pay.

Why are women not in parliament. I have no clue, I can only presume they do not want to be there (it certianly doesn't appeal to me anyway!). is there evidence that women are applying for jobs and not getting them.

The rape conviction rate is extremely disheartening.

On a bit of tangent here, but i find that women to women abuse can be extremely detrimental (verbal and physical) and may be something that the feminist cause should tackle. I know sisterhood and all that is a bit of a cliche, but sometimes it seems we do more damage bitching and arguing between ourselves...

Ali, to quote just a few stats:

• women in the UK are paid 22.6% less per hour than men

• women do two thirds of the world's work, yet receive 10% of the world's income and own 1% of the means of production

• At least 100,000 women are raped each year in the UK and the rape conviction rate is 6.5%

• Only 18.3% of the world's members of parliament are women (the UK figure is under 20%)

(from The Equality Illusion by Kat Banyard)

I don't call myself a feminist because I don't feel I really understand what feminism is about nowadays.

In the UK over the past century:-

Women have fought for the vote and won.
Women have fought for equal pay and in the eyes of the law have won.
Women have fought for choice about lifestyle, ie, the right to make the decision about whether to work or to bring up children and we have won on that too.

What are we fighting for nowadays (I am talking exclusively in the UK) - I actually don't know and don't understand (unless of course you want to talk about why people are sexist towards secretaries - but that is on another thread).

Count me in too: what's not to like about being a feminist? I'm very proud of the women's movements that have made it possible for me to work for equal pay, to vote, to get a divorce etc...

I'm been reading this thread with great interest and agree totally with Kinderella - why wouldn't any woman call themselves feminist?

I always liked this quote from Rebecca West:

'I myself have never been able to find out precisely what feminism is: I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a door mat or a prostitute.'

I'm a feminist and proud to call myself a feminist

There's too much to comment on here but I like SkaterGrrrl's last post, I also agree with many of the posts about equal pay for work of equal value.

Where indeed are all these feminists who put everyone off with their radical ideas?

i will count myself as a feminist until the day comes that women in every country in the world have the right to make reproductive choices, live on their own, drive a car, take any job at equal pay to men, and otherwise be recognised as fully equal under the laws of the country.

Why are women still living like slaves in some countries, when society no longer tolerates male slaves?

I'm amazed anyone wouldn't want to call themselves feminist.

To me saying I wasn't a feminist would be like admitting to being a racist. To me feminism is wanting women to be treated equally. Not discriminating against women. What's not to like?

I am against all forms of discrimination. Discrimination against women is just one type of discrimination I oppose.

Remember, (at least) half of those making up those other groups that are discriminated against (disabled, non-white, poor, etc.) are women. They are disadvantaged on both counts. Wanting them not to be discriminated against on the basis of their sex is a big part of opposing the injustices they face.

I think feminism has a lot of bad press, but honestly I couldn't be anything else.

And yes, MN feminism section rocks!

I heart the MN feminist section!

Good post, skater

We've made it into discussions of the day!

"However, I think that in order to align myself with one of them, I would need to be actively involved, .... as having felt the effect of it."

Hope have you never felt the effect of living in a society that views women as inferior?

• Never felt vulnerable jogging at night or making your way home alone after dark?
• Never felt pressure to try to look thin and pretty?
• Never been asked to make the teas in a business meeting, just because you're the only one present without a penis?
• Never been yelled at by workers on a building site?
• Never been outraged by an advert or billboard depicting women as madonnas (the perfect martyr mum of washing powder adverts) or whores (the crawling, panting, open-mouthed 18 year old blonde selling casinos or tyres with legs akimbo)?

In my experience, to live in the world is to be reminded daily that my safety on the streets is not guaranteed; my appearance is up for judgement & comment by all and, in the office, I am a 2nd class citizen. And I am lucky enough to live in the democratic west, where (on paper anyway) women have equal rights to men.

This is why feminism matters - until we enjoy the same freedoms as men, we are not equal.

Oh, good, I love this topic. No time to read now but YAY am feminista without apology.

Will come back with more pertinent apercus later.

Of course I'm a feminist!

Why wouldnt I identify with the cause that liberated me?

I think of myself as a feminist

That's very revealing happysmiley, really interesting.

People don't want to believe in systematic sexism do they?

Because if they did, they would either have to change it, or decide to be part of the problem, something no-one ever wants to think of themself as being.