Why some women don't identify with feminism

I have found it fascinating reading this thread.

I am none the wiser about the different types of feminism, but I don't think it matters. In my mind, feminism is simply defined as equality. Of course you can break it down into what you mean by 'equality' and that can lead to a million other questions, but equality pretty much sums it up for me. I didn't realise that so many people read more into it than that and rejected it!

I have always been a feminist, but my perspective has changed over time. When I was a young woman in my early 20s, with no family commitments and the advantage of a stable loving homelife and a university education, the world was mine for the taking and I understood feminism to simply mean equal education/career opportunities and pay. I had a tendency (though was too well-brought-up to admit it) to pity SAHMs as being downtrodden or lacking in intelligence.

Fast forward a few years and my understanding has changed. Now I have children I understand for the first time why women would WANT to stay at home with their children, and although it is not a choice I would make, I am now able to respect that. For everyone I know who is a voluntary SAHM however, I know another who is frustrated by it but finds childcare costs prohibitive (and why do we see the cost of that as solely coming from the woman's salary, rather than the family income?).

Today I am single mother, with an ex that bears no financial responsibility for his children (either in terms of maintenance or cost of childcare); an ex who is free of any daily responsibilities so can live life pretty much as he pleases. I, despite continuing to work, find my career options severely limited by childcare issues. I would dearly, dearly love to have a 'wife' in the way that men have benefitted from for centuries. If I could trust my children to be with someone deeply committed to their welfare so that I could choose to pursue my career, what I could do! But I don't have a wife, so I make the best of the childcare I have and am resigned to a stagnating career until such time my children are less reliant on me and I can change things. From a personal perspective, I believe that childcare is a feminist issue (as it mostly falls to women) that is hugely under-tackled in discussing, along with the division of household tasks.

The reason I left my ex was due to DV. Prior to my own experience I could never understand why women 'just didn't leave', and while I felt it was very much the perpetrator's fault, I felt a certain impatience with the victim. Having now been through it myself, I realise how insidious this abuse is and how subtly it starts. By the time it becomes obvious, you're too far in to be able to see it with the clarity outsiders can. Fortunately, I managed to leave and have never looked back, but I have a new understanding of DV and would dearly like to see the law changed so that DV is dealt with far more seriously than it currently is.

Likewise porn. As an empowered 20-something who wasn't oppressed, porn didn't bother me. I saw no harm in it if the woman enjoyed it too. However, now I'm a little older and less 'sheltered', I've seen the damage that such objectification of women achieves. I know there are many people who can use porn without there being any negative connotations, but there are far more who use it as an excuse to objectify and debase women. Porn doesn't bother me anywhere near as much as the blatant sexualisation of women in mainstream advertising, however.

Sorry, that's very long!

BTW, can someone point me to the thread that explains about the different types of feminism, or recommend a book that introduces you to the different ideas? I'd love to broaden my knowledge on this subject.

Absolutely Xenia. gender inequality means that women take the weight of parenting responsibility, depriving men and women of the social and economic freedom to make free choices about how they parent. Your example illustrates how women are taken to be less reliable and committed to work due to their assumed primary parenting role, and how this is damaging to individual women and men.

Well I don't have any works by Susan Brownmiller but I can see even from that quote that she isn't saying all men are rapists.

If she were, I wouldn't agree with her. This kind of nitpicking is just an attempt to distract from a robust discussion and derail this thread. If this issue is your main concern, why not start a thread called "do feminists believe all men are rapists". You know what the anser would be. It would be "no".

Perhaps then we can reclaim the word feminist and stop it being used in a derogatory way. If I were asked I always say I am in favour of equal rights under the law and fairness at home.

On the work example of 50 year old man earning more though it can work the other way - my children's fathre was once told by his headmaster he wasn't getting a particular pay rise unlike a few other women teachers because I (a woman) earned too much. He also found it harder to leave work early to let our nanny go home even though he was primarily responsible for that as it was assumed women could skive out of all kinds of things but just because he was male he could be there until 6 or later every day. Feminism for me has always mostly been about fairness for the sexes and the more fair we make things for men too - such as allowing them within a marriage to make conscious decision to stay home if they prefer that rather than forcing them out to work the better the position of women is in general. Gender neutrality rules. Indeed if we gave men non transferable paternity rights - take it or lose it not given to women you'd find more men involved at home and it easier for women to work.

Shrieking harpy - that is not saying that all men are rapists.

It is saying that they use the threat of rape to keep women in a state of fear. A fine distinction, but still a distinction.

some of the words are missing off my precious list.

Silly old me, maybe I'm really a blonde

Fortunately it looks like you've put your pretty little heads together and know what I meant.

jokes

But yes, isn't it good to be a feminist! Just finished reading "Living Dolls". Had a chat to a couple of older guys at work about it, they were very much in agreement and had complained about other colleagues putting up topless photos out the Sun on their lockers.

great list antoinette

this thread is SO HEARTENING

Antoinette that's so true. I feel that one of the most insidious aspects of sexism is that a woman is under constant scrutiny: her appearance; behaviour; beliefs. We are supposed to smile ('Cheer up love it mght never happen') be calm ('Don't get your knickers in a twist love') and pretty ('I'd give her one') but not too available ('slag'). Underneath all that is the expectation that we should do as we are told, look a certain way and be happy about it. Otherwise we are seen as 'difficult'. This is one reason why feminists are mistrusted. We break the unspoken rules.

Men go through their lives without this perpetual assessment and unless you have experienced it, it's impossible to imagine the effect it has.

That's one reason why I am happy to be a feminist.

oops a bit of verbal typing diahorrea there!

I'm saddened by the rejection of feminism.

Why should it be shameful to believe men and women equal?

Some people argue that they don't identify themselves as part on an oppressed group. Perhaps it is easier to ignore the endemic oppression of women. I can't believe, much as I would like to, that there is a woman alive who has not experienced some of the following at some point in their lives:

negative/judgey comments for being too interested in their looks

negative/judgey comments for not being interested enough in their looks

sexual harrassment

staying quiet about sexual harassment for fear of work disadvantage, not being taken seriously etc

being leered at/sexual

being "flashed"

being groped

being further sexually assaulted

being raped

being offered money/favours/advantage for sex
being told "that's a girl's toy"

doing more than a 50% share of work within the

having her status as a "slag" stated, implied or worried about

having her status as "frigid" stated, implied or worried about

being asked/expected to do a role associated with gender sterotypes outside of her job (make tea, do photocopying, do birthday collections)

feeling/being judged about being a SAHM

Feeling/being judged about not being a SAHM

being told to "relax" when she mentions, complains or worries about any of the above

for a start

If anyone can say these issues affect men and women to an equal or comparable extent, then they may go ahead and say oppression of women in this country is not a current issue.

also I don't really think about whether a nurse is a man or a woman, and I certainly wouldn't have issue with a man being a nurse. I'm not a character from Meet the Parents/Fockers!

and caring about gender equality (ie being a feminist) doesn't use up thinking reserves, stopping feminists from caring about other issues!

Love this thread- some really thoughtful answers here. I have learned a lot. I do think a lot of women feel threatened by feminism- not sure why. Is it the not wanting to look assertive- as its (perceived to be) off-putting to men? (and I guess the older generation- a lot of parents I know can be quite dismissive of feminism or women being assertive in general).

In my case, when I worked for [insert name of large traditional UK high st store here] about 15 yrs ago as a 20 something single woman, I complained about one of my colleagues (male, early 50s~)getting paid more than me for exactly the same job.

My supervisor told me it was because 'He has a family to support' - that really fucked me off even then- and tbh it still does now.

Only 15yrs ago FFS!

A lot of men in my current profession (civil service- v traditional still) play lip service to us all being equal- but scratch the surface and the fact that I have a child means I am a feather brained dimwit who is not 'really' interested in the job...its a constant preconception and as a woman you have to work twice as hard as a man for recognition.

I am proud to be a feminist and challenge their lazy assumptions- and say when comments are unacceptable- but I see a lot of women let it slide, or think its somehow weak to complain.

I'd love to see a basic 'Why is feminism still relevant in our society' guide! Can I put it up on office notice board?

Another latecomer here. It always amazes me when women say they're not feminists. It seems to me to be the same as saying "Of course I don't mind if you pay me less than a man, expect me to do all the housework and ignore and belittle my opinions, it's no less than I ,with my second x chromosome, deserve. While you're at it, it's fine if you intimidate me/ force yourself on me because I brought it on myself by wearing a skirt in a public place after dark having been in the pub and we all know no means yes anyway"

I was at a party last week with a lot of uni friends, we went to the last single sex college in the university when it was still single sex, breeding ground for feminism you would have thought. I brought up Kat Banyard's book, saying how amazing it was and was told "Feminism always strikes me as something only insecure women need". Lots of self satisfied agreement and nodding of heads. Ugh.

BTW would thoroughly recommend Abi Grant's "Words Can Describe" to anyone who hasn't read it. She spoke with Kat Banyard at Cambridge Wordfest and was apparently very funny and eloquent. It's her account of a sexual assault in her own home and the aftermath. She writes incredibly well and it galvanised me to try and do more as much as The Equality Illusion did.

rosa

it's fab here!

Oooh, I'm a bit late to catch on...I didn't realise we now had a feminism topic. When did that happen? Brilliant

Haven't read all the messages but wanted to say that I consider myself a feminist.

I try to teach my daughters that they deserve respect, they have rights over thier own bodies, over thier own decisions and ambitions and generally to be treated equally, and with equal and fair representation. NONE of which takes away from the amazing possibility that they will one day be mothers, it seems bizarre that anyone would think so.

Even they often point out the inequalities to me - today "but why are they all men? Why can't we choose a woman prime minister?"

There is still a lot to fight for - in my own life - why do I and my colleagues work bloody hard and study hard in an almost entirely female proffesion to get paid minimum wage in a career with high responsibility and high risks? Why do I have apparently decent people turn the other way when I walk past simply because I have the cheek to leave a controlling and moderately violent marriage? Thats before we start talking about rape conviction rates etc etc. These things NEED to be changed, and I hope against hope that will happen before my daughters are adults. Once again, none of that is anti-men and I find it bizarre that anyone would think so.

I'm a guy and a feminist as I understand it.

Which is 1: no sexual assault/rape. 2. No physical assault/murder 3. Equal pay

None of which have been achieved.

All the stuff about being sexy or sahm-ing doesn't come into it. women can do what they want, including making choices i might think daft/good. i know women who love careers and ones who have eighty four kids and bake biscuits. it's all good.

As an aside men also hate other men, misandrism, very powerful.

Meant to say earlier in the thread (or maybe it was on another thread ... I'm losing track of all these feminism discussions!) that I agree with you Lenin that if we could just get equal representation in parliament that alone would make a massive, positive difference. The knock on effects in terms of legislation would be huge.

I support women-only shortlists for this reason. Get more women into parliament ASAP. Then perhaps the issues affecting us will have a chance of being addressed seriously.

zobopopstar great post. Very rousing

There is a gender pay gap though before women have their children, isn't there, and for people in the same jobs.

I mean we're not going to get anywhere with why nurses are paid less than binmen (or whatever) until we have sorted out why men and women in the same jobs at the same companies with teh same hours and teh same skill and experienec levels are being paid different sums.

We can't even get teh very basic stuff done at the moment.

They wanted to force companies over a certai size to reveal average male ad female salaries didn;t they - I wonder what happened to that.

Yes to parental leave rather than maternity - at risk of sounding "what about the men" it will also advantage the vast numbers of men who would relish more time with their children when they are little.

dittany: "There have been a whole lot of arguments made on this thread - but Fluffles decides to reduce them down to "blah blah" and then dismiss them as if there was no substance to them whatsoever (I also think she twisted the original argument somewhat too). So what feminists are actually saying, their strong arguments, their reasoning count for nothing."

I most certainly do NOT dismiss all the arguments just because i shortened them to blah blah.. maybe an ellipsis would have been better to use. sorry.

BUT i thought that the thread said 'why do some women not self identify as feminists?' (btw. i'm not saying i don't) i answered that IN MY EXPERIENCE it can be because it can be scary when people with very strong well-read beliefs come in and try to tear your 'argument' apart when it was never supposed to be an argument just a statement of how you feel or your own experience.

MY experience is that it is indeed scary to enter into discussions about feminism if you don't have a LOT of experience of the arguments or are willing to study a lot of the writings. And you can find yourself under personal attack for your own lifestyle choices on the back of whether you say you are or are not keen to be called 'feminist'.

and the reason we still have lower earnings? our work needs to be more flexible and transient than that of men. we have to take huge amounts of time off to look after our children and the media makes us feel guilty when we do return to work.

men need to be given greater rights when it comes to paternity leave. just another wonderful thread of feminism, that looks like it isn't, but is. like the contraceptive pill, this will give women even more choice and freedom in their lives.

also (how fair is this?), i trained and have the same qualifications, although in a different profession, as my husband. i am paid almost half the wage he is. now i think this may be down to the reluctance of women to unionise and i work in a female dominated industry (nursery nurse) and he in a male one (mechanic). that is probably down to the fact that women don't like to rock the boat and put up with a lot more crap.

now i know i sound fairly ranty. i wasn't for a long time, but my second daughter is now three months old and i can't stand the thought of my girls feeling that being a woman is less than being a man. the negativity on this thread is so strange, when i'm sure the majority of us agree with the campaign to let girls be girls. that's as feminist as you get. together womankind is a force to be reckoned with.

Thanks for the info Gherkins and imsonot..

Forgive my ignorance and naivety on the subject but i'm enjoying being educated!

Gosh who wants to be a feminist? "Feminist", as every sensible girl knows means "ugly", which is one of the very worst things a woman can be. It means "unattractive to men"; it means "lesbian". One penalty, and there are many others, is to be ostracised by other women who will not wish to align themselves with you for fear that they will be tarred with the same terrible brush.

Anyway I have it on very good authority from a childhood friend of mine (who stayed over at my house last night and spent the morning wandering about wearing only a pair of very tight boxershorts, which behaviour I found unsettlingly agressive - but obviously I didn't want to offend him by objecting) that it is far better to be a woman than a man, and that by far the most disadvantaged group in our society these days is white middle class males between the ages of 16 and 25.

Naturally I was only too pleased to have my consciousness raised.