Why some women don't identify with feminism

Beach - you're right. we need not just the ability to share parental leave but also (a) the woman to be the higher earner as often as the man and (b) employers to take the same attitudes towards men taking paternity leave as women taking maternity leave.

oh yes and (c) for men themselves to be equally keen to take leave as women are.

ah well, one step at a time...

Parental leave is 6 months for the first child.

Of all the couples I know here I don't know a single one where the father as taken the leave and not the mother. And this in a country with high rates of working women.

Mostly it makes financial sense for the women to take the time off because the women is usually the lower earner. I think this is the problem that needs to be addressed, because in France anyway, allocation of parental leave appears to make no real difference to equality in childcare issues.

Beachcomber what happens in France with the first child [bit dim emoticon]?

I hear ya minipie. I think I was more referring to haapysmiley's comment.

I do think we need to sort out parental leave more fairly but I think we need to do a whole lot of work on attitudes and values surrounding paid and unpaid work as well.

I live in France where a family is offered 3 years parental leave on the birth of their second child. Either parent may take the leave but it is almost always the women who takes it.

I generally end up thinking in these types of discussions that capitalism and feminism are not compatible.

I suppose that's where Fathers4Justice would say they were coming from

Weren't they saying "I want to see more of my child"?

(Shame it was so bound up with the question of maintenance payments).

I'm liking that ISNT

'Equal pay for my wife!'
'I CAN wash up!'
'Down with macho expectations!'
'I'm NOT having my period!'

Agree beachcomber.

Wrote a load of gumph but will leave it as simply "agree".

Plus if men have concerns can't they sort them out? Why should it be up to me to put aside my concerns and sort out theirs for them? They are the ones with the clout after all.

If men want to rail against their stereotypical role of sport fanatic bread winner, then maybe they could have some marches? Stomp en masse through the streets of London waving banners saying "no more rape", "I don't want to watch football" and "Down with being constrained by gendered stereotypes" and other natty slogans.

(sorry couldn't stop myself spouting gumph )

Oh I certainly am not arguing that male concerns should be addressed Beachcomber.

I'm saying they ought to be forced
to given the opportunity to take on equal responsibility for childcare etc.

I'm sure many of them aren't remotely concerned about their current
unwillingness inability to participate equally in childcare.

Yes Beachcomber. And there is also the assumption that because we prioritise women's concerns that we oppose men's concerns. We don't. We just have a different agenda. Sometimes we have more than one agenda.

I took my 11 yo son on an anti-war march. You could call this feminist action: I was exposing my beautiful man in training to counter-cultural influences that value peace rather than violence. It was feminist action, pacifist action and also a bloody good day out for us both. He felt part of thousands of people wanting the same thing and he still calls Bush a war criminal!

You can be a feminist and take feminist action which benefits men but which isn't about men. There is no real dichotomy.

minipie yes of course i agree with your sentiments.

When I refer to the "what about the men" thing it is in the context of the examples I have given, where women are talking about things that are very important/personal to them and someone comes along and uses "what about the men" to derail the discussion and shut everyone up. i imagine you would agree that in a thread with a bunch of women talking about their personal experiences of rape, it is not helpful for someone to come in and say "yes but sometimes women get drunk and grab mens bums in the pub - its terrible - what about that eh? EH?" and of course everyone gets confused and upset.

Taking about shared parental leave (which as a family we would have taken up in a shot) or changing the cultures in work so that men feel comfortable applying for, and companies are used to granting, things like part time or flexible working for male empoyees. All of that sort of thing is a huge interest to me and I hope will start to break down the barriers of traditional gender roles and alow people in relationships to play to their strengths. In our relationship it would have been great if we could have shared my mat leave say 6 months each and then both gone part time with maybe me doing more hours than DH. Of course we coudn't do that, itds just not possible. But hopefully one day (fairly soon?) it will be.

I find the notion that the way to liberate women is to make sure that men are liberated first profoundly disturbing.

I know this isn't what people here mean but it does sound a bit like the argument that no woman has a right to expect equality and fairness in her life until all male concerns have been addressed.

Fair point, happysmiley.

Where women victims are held to different standards (of behaviour, of evidence, etc) than male victims, then obviously the way to deal with that is not to treat men as badly as women are currently treated... it's to improve the way women are treated.

No probs.

No problem, it was just a phrase that jumped out at me. No offense intended.

Kaloki I fear I'm being misunderstood again.

I am NOT saying that men cannot benefit from feminism.

I'm sure you do not mean to be misleading but you have only quoted half of what I say.

I am definitely a feminist who says "what about the men".

This is because I think that, these days and in this country, the main thing that reduces women's equality is that men are not expected to take on childcare and housework to the same degree as women.

that is reflected in men not being given the same (eg) paternity rights as women have maternity rights... which in turn gives men another reason not to take on the main childcare role.

So I say "what about the men... why aren't they doing the jobs that women have historically taken on... once they do, women will get further towards equality".

Another reason that many feminists don't like to hear "what about the men" is because they hear this phrase so much from a group of people known as MRAs or male rights activists. MRAs are anti feminism and very keen to mispresent and misinterpret feminism as the female desire to oppress men.

Thankfully many men have intelligent and insightful things to say about men/women/feminism. I find this chap pretty good on a male view of feminism.

He doesn't say "what about the men" he says things like this;

"One of the ways that men can help deconstruct patriarchical systems is by having empathy for women's experiences, and by recognizing that sometimes it's important to shut up on women's spaces. In a world that consistently devalues the experiences of women, it's not so much to ask that women have a place where they're free to vent their frustrations. "

This thread is fascinating and I'm glad that in many cases it is bringing out really important and interesting feminist issues.

I would call myself a feminist - very much along the model espoused by Xenia of equality both at home and at work, equal pay and equal rights under the law. Iam also conscious that I am very lucky to have generally not experienced derogatory treatment (or indeed, different treatment) as a result of my gender, except for example when heavily pregnant where the differences were all good.)

However, I have a nearly 3yo daughter who is just starting to work out that there is a difference between the genders - partly from sharing a bath with her baby brother and starting to investigate what those differences mean. This has made me much more interested in femnisim generally and much more willing to fight for more equality and better parental leave/ pay rights which would benefit me personally at the moment and to end violence against women.

I would also like to add that at best I was a bit of a hazy feminist - i.e. equality is good n'all but the rape stats aren't as bad as they seem etc BUT having read this topic and starting to read blogs/ books etc the horrible truth of violence against women is becoming much clearer. So what do we do about it?

"Men as a group cannot benefit from feminism"

I think they can, there will of course be some who wont, but then they don't want a Patrichal system as such, just a system focused on benefitting them

I know that feminism would benefit my partner, my brother, and my father immensely. But I do find the word "feminism" in itself makes it harder for people to see how equality would benefit all, not just women.

What a great discussion! I think you/we are all perhaps both strong and a bit upagainst it - both insights seem to me feminist statements. I also agree so much that I've yet to hear anyone dissing an SAHM.

Forgot to say Mollybob I see you have also commented on what I said about 'having cake and eating it'. I'm sorry if this sort of opinion puts you off feminism. Really I am.

I hope you feel that way because I haven't expressed my sentiments clearly and you think I'm saying something I'm not.

Really what I'm saying is what has been so well expressed by ImSoNotTelling in her post above.

I happen to think that the fact that feminists seem to spend so much energy on explaining why "what about the men" is not really relevant to feminism scarily indicative of how powerful, insidious and far reaching patriarchal values are.

For the record the male feminists I know never say "what about the men". They say that a non male dominated society (if we ever see such a thing) will benefit many men in many ways but will, by definition, mean the relinquishing of male privilege. Men as a group cannot benefit from feminism (which seeks to end oppression) without a change in privilege (which is a consequence of oppression). In other words politically aware men who support feminist values say that men as a group cannot have their cake and eat it.