Why some women don't identify with feminism

Ok, so your argument is that today's feminist is only concerned with browbeating SAHMs? So the lack of representation on the bench and in parliament, the fact that women are sexualised where men are not, the fact that women are raped and beaten out of all proportion with men, the fact that there is still a pay gap, the fact that a lot of women don't have the choice to work, they have to stay home -

(and Tulips, you are missing the Equal Pay For Equal Work part - the point is that even with equal experience and skill, the pay is different)

• do you not believe those things are problems? Or do you not associate the push to change them with feminism?

"i believe in much more than gender equality, i believe in equality for all" Surely gender equality is equality for all? Unless there is a third gender?

With regard to a group of people fighting for rights, there bloody was or do you think that changes in the laws regarding rape within marriage; property law; alleged equal pay etc all "just happened".

Also, for the millioneth time on here, why does anyone think that being a SAHM means you can't be a feminist? For heaven's sake, it's a choice for those of you lucky enough not to need the money. You at least have the choice now.

When I said "right to work" I meant "right to work in a decent job/career or professional job/for the same rate of pay as a man with equivalent skills etc. If that is what you choose."

I mean does it really need to be spelt out? I mean I'd hardly be saying that women should have the right to do the work they did before a few decades ago ie hard physical, low paid or no paid, zero kudos roles, and they shouldn't be allowed to do other sorts of work, really.

When women say that feminism won the right for women to work they mean decent paid professional employment on a par with men. If that is what women want to do they should be allowed to do it - a few decades ago they weren't.

no, the history of the feminist movement I know, I understand.

But we are not talking about the history of feminism, what people did 100 or so years ago. We are talking - I thought - about the here and now.

And yes, what was done many years ago to give us rights was wonderful, and I am forever grateful.

But in the here and now, the attitude seems - ime - to be you MUST do x, y, z, or you are letting the side down. You MUST think x, y,z, or you are a problem. You must be x, y, z don't you know how women suffered to give you these rights.

Yes, I know. I know they suffered to give me choices. And my choice is to be a wife and mother. And that is what, I personally, have come under fire for - from every single woman I have encountered in rl who called themselves a Feminist (capital F) and I had the misfortune to find myself in debate with.

Normally in the pub.

A couple of points:

I have just watched the Scottish Leaders debate on SKY - another 4 men. The Prime Ministerial debate = 3 men, the Chancellors debate = 3 men. Does it matter? Well the issues discussed were not the issues that are raised time and again here on Mumsnet.

I have always believed that equality for women = equality for men and that there were many benefits for men e.g. relief from the burden of being sole bread winner, ability to define their own masculinity without having to conform to 'macho' stereotypes.

As a life long feminist, I had imagined that by the 21st century, equality would have become an established fact, 'feminism' would have become redundant and 'people' (not men and women) would join together in pursuing an 'equality for all' agenda.

Feminists have always been at their best when tackling injustice head on, being actively involved in direct action and specific campaigns. I am sad when I see feminism sidelined into a sterile academic debate.

One final thought - the Woman's Right to Choose slogan started in relation to Abortion, where it was an attainable, legal objective. The extention of the 'right to choose' mantra to e.g. the sex industry, SAHMs, Number of children, etc. makes a mockery of its original intention as these are complex issues where financial constraints, employment opportunites, etc. mean that many (most?) women do not have anything approaching a free choice.

tulips but obama's point was about equal pay for equal work.

In my old industry teh pay differential was 40%. Women were paid much less before they had their children.

That's not OK, surely?

I don't believe having huge amounts of experience does make people better at their jobs. The whole idea that people should get paid more just because they have been in a job longer is sexist and ageist. People should be paid based on the role they are performing and their ability to perform that role.

custy, re: "dittany's point re: allthe things that have helped women, the laws, the intitutional changes =, etc. makes it sound like there was a group of feminists who fought and won for those rights."

It makes it sound like there was a group of women who fought for those changes because there was a group of women who fought for those changes.

Compare to the civil rights movement in the US.

I've read this several times now, this idea that feminists say that SAHMs are letting the side down.

It's mystifying to me, because I've never heard it. I've heard women warn that automatically being a SAHM puts one in a vulnerable position. I've said myself that it might well be your choice, but it's a choice made within the context of a society geared to encourage and support that choice, and you need to own that. But hate? Hate? Pagwatch said something about being called the Antichrist. I mean, what?

And more relevantly, why is that the only thing 'feminism' is about, to you? Do you not associate feminism with fighting for the vote? For equal pay? For the right to prosecute rapists? For the right to enter learning institutions, and have access to contraception, and be legally allowed to own property? How about the fight to be equally represented in Parliament and on the bench, how about the ability to choose other roles instead of the (perfectly fine!) SAHM role which without feminism was basically the only role allowed to the middle and upper classes?

I mean, fucking hell, it's not as if anything I just named is obscure or badly publicised.

JustMyTwoPenceWorth

According to a thread on here, feminism has sod all to do with giving women choices.

Good point custardo. My mother, my grandmothers and greatgrandmothers all worked. One of whom had two jobs for awhile.

Feminism has sod all to do with the "right to work". We've always worked, we've worked bloody hard for centuries. It has only been a small minority who could afford to stay at home until recently.

Feminism to me, is there to improve opportunities for us and therefore the choices available. Anything else is an attempt to replace patriarchy with a matricarchy - which is fairly pointless in my eyes.

HS, how can we correct those myths when our voices are never heard against the din of mainstream media putting about lies and myths about feminism, even women's magazines (see that ridiculous quiz from Company magazine that was discussed on here recently)?

Even on here, dittany and others are constantly having to rebut these false ideas about feminism but it falls on deaf ears.

ilovemydog.... Because if i've taken several years off then i don't believe i have an automatic right to the same pay as someone who has more years of on the job experience than me because they've been working throughout the time i've taken off... whether they be male or female.

When i chose to leave the workforce to raise my children that was a consideration, if i had wanted to be entitled to the same pay when i went back i would have done Xenia and gone straight back to work and my pay would have increased year by year due to my performance and experience. Maternity leave does not give you any work experience so it is insane to suggest that a woman who's been off on maternity leave for a year should automatically receive the same pay increase as her colleagues who have been working throughout that year.

dittany's point re: allthe things that have helped women, the laws, the intitutional changes =, etc.

makes it sound like there was a group of feminists who fought and won for those rights.

also the vote and jumping in front of horses etc, was for middle class women , poor plebs still considered too thickto vote.

I don't because 'Feminism' to me is about sneering at women who want to be sahm, who want the whole 'housewife' thing! When people say they're feminists, the next thing that tends to come out of their mouths is how people like me are letting the side down, putting the cause back to the 1950s...

Well, I thought the whole women's rights thing was about giving women the right to choose! But no, if you want your life to be about home and family, then feminists seem to hate you.

ime.