Why some women don't identify with feminism

Blackcurrants, is it okay that I love you? In a nonoppressive way?

Dittany, I'm thick skinned enough to take any of your insults. In fact, I'm pleased to be of service if that is what truly makes you happy.

That or you could consult my other thread for the sort of stuff which feminism should be concerned with. Dry academic debate simply alienated those of a more pragmatic, practical bent.

Right, sorry Dittany, I should've googled that instead of going by memory.

How odd.

Coming in late to this thread, (I just woke up. Yay!) I'm going to say this, and I hope it makes sense.

Some (many) women don't identify with feminism because we live in a patriarchal society, the power trickles down, and women get rewards for being good patriarchally-sanctioned women. Why kick against that and struggle, be misrepresented and mocked? Life's hard enough! Right? Except that the rewards the patriarchy hands out for being a 'good woman' aren't the rewards I want.

We live in a patriarchy. That's how our society is organized. This means that the majority of political, social, and economic power is still in the hands of men. Patriarchy is a political system which ensures the elevation of men, and thereby the subjugation of women. It comes from the long standing alliance of sexism + power. Not all men are sexist, not all men are oppressors, but while we live in a patriarchy all men BENEFIT from background sexism, and all men BENEFIT from low-level oppression of women (Why does my DH get so much praise for changing his niece's nappy, and me none? DH's not a sexist oppressor, but he does benefit from the expectation that men-don't-do-nappies, etc. He happens to be pro-feminist and find that attitude appalling, but he still gets the applause for being a decent human being because he's a man in the patriarchy. Not fair for him, either. It's a rubbish system, and we should scrap it )

I imagine lots of women don't identify with feminism because they either like the rewards they get from the patriarchal system enough to not notice the stinking price women have to pay and the crappy roles they have to play in order to receive those rewards - OR because they look at the way feminists are misrepresented, denigrated, mocked, abused, and hectored by our patriarchal society and think: Sod that! Life's hard enough!

In some ways I can't say I blame them. Those are two sound reasons not to buck the system, really, and the patriarchy has done a fine old number on women in the twentieth century, actually managing to make oppression seem more attractive than the fight for liberation. The patriarchy is good at that sort of thing, it has the power and it uses it.

But let's not get stuck on "I don't identify as a feminist because someone who did made me feel bad once, therefore all feminists are bad." I wouldn't say that about any other political movement, after all. Not all marxists are the same, not all environmentalists are the same, not all catholics or tories are the same, even! I'm confused as to why one or two feminists are taken as representation of a whole movement, when that NEVER, EVER happens to anyone else. Doesn't that make anyone else suspicious?

So when I say "We live in a patriarchy" I'm not saying "Your DH is a rapist/oppressor/." I'm saying "thousands-of-years of sexism plus power has given men the upper hand over women in society, but it makes women AND men pay an unfair, unsustainable price for that deal. Let's overturn this system and find equal power, equal agency, and equal rights for all. Patriarchy isn't about YOUR or MY DH/Brother/Son, it's about a system he lives in, which most of us are blind to. And the system SUCKS.

Ooh this got looong. Medals and Jaffacakes to anyone who got this far!

Ok heres your answer to "Why some women don't identify with feminism?"

Its because they come on threads like these and leave thinking well now I feel like shit I'm not even going to look into that

Bronze, I think the reason us feminists get passionate, and may make you feel browbeaten, is because we're very very sick of people saying things like 'feminists believe that all men are rapists' and 'want women to be superior to men' and 'hate SAHMs' and it's used as a cudgel against us over and over.

We are vilified in various parts of society. We are laughed at as hairylegged lesbians, we are dismissed as Feminazis, we are blamed for social breakdown and the spiralling divorce rate.

It's infuriating to have the same myths thrown at us by women when what we're trying to do is improve women's lives. It isn't actually you, per se, but these threads tend to blend into one - everything Dittany or I or Xenia or whoever says is taken as standing for all feminists ever, and likewise we're responding to general attacks.

Rape does include penetration with foreign objects, etc., as ISNT says. In Australia it also includes nonconsensual oral sex (both cunnilingus and fellatio).

Clarissimo, you're not offending me at all, by the way, I'm really enjoying engaging with you.

Bronze, I think with 'odd coincidence' you are trying to get a dig in, but can I refer you to my above post re: dittany not being the Grand High Poobah of feminism?

Because I was trying to find a great comment someone else had made and I remember it was in roughly the same place but it was odd that I could remember that bit and was looking for it at the same time as clarrissimo and tortoises discussions.

Clarissimo I am feeling the same way. I am only trying to learn and question from the woman on the streets perspective and perhaps help answer the original question but I just feel emotionally beaten up and defensive instead.

Lol, that's your true colours marked Dittany.

Now who's the nasty oppressor?

I think it is fair to say that teh vast majority of rapes are committed by men, isn't it?

Or is that in question?

shut the fuck up

nice

Didn't rape used to be defined as the forcible insertion of penis into vagina?

I think there is some terminology confusion going on here, rather than people actually disagreeing with each other, isn't there?

The definition of rape was widened to include anal penetration and penetration with objects more recently I thought.

STFU?

I don't know that one.

In what way a coincidence bronze?

I am not claiming to be an expert but I have been trying to learn from these threads- I am a campaigner by nature although mainly in the field of disability rights as I have disabled children

I amde a mistake and tried to explain that and was jumoped upon so have now taken feminism out of threads I can see as clearly my presence offends people rather than makes them want to enage and explain

I can't learn from that
and just end up feeling negative about myself which is pointless.

I'm serious - you show me a woman who does not believe that she is the equal of man, desreves equal pay, education etc. I have never met one.

People may shy away from the term "feminism" due to the negative crud which the media has tarred it with, that and the way some women think that they can dictate what it means, but it doesn't mean that they don't sign up to it's basic ideals.

"Clarissimo, let me get this straight

You are saying that all rapists are men SOLELY because rape is only penile penetration in vagina, and therefore biology dictates that? And there is therefore no deeper, systemic reason?

I...ok, I'm going to go away and think about how best to tackle this one. Starting with the most reasonable way to say 'I suggest you do some research before spouting this all over the internet'. "

while this was going on by coincidence I was trying to find a thread I had read where one bit I remembered was Dittany saying women can;t rape

Odd coincidence

I hadn't come across any other definition that doesn't make me evfil

But as my own explanation of that is clearly not wanted then I will go.