Erasure of Women from Public/Cultural life:

Zombie thread.

In a similar vein to the make up event you had to go to, a friend of mine has been invited to a spa day recently. She is dreading it.

Agree that class is an issue. We were talking at work about a (male) colleague who is unlikely to get his promotion because he isn't the right social class.

But is is easier for a working class man to assimilate into the "right" class at work, than it is for a woman to become a man.

YOu seem to have a huge thing against sex and the sex industry though dittany. Not all feminists share that view. And by the way I agree with hs, there are lots of women in the City and lap dancing would be rare. I have been to an evening event at a make up place and I'm afraid I found it very dull and very sexist - the assumption that women want that kind of entertainment. But no one would dispute there is still work to be done to get women to where they ought to be. Do also be aware that perhaps class as much as sex is an issue too in some areas too - the arts if full of the middle class; Olympic sportspeople usually went to fee paying schools; never mind race as well. That doesn't mean we shouldn't continue to work at getting more women in senior positions though.

I'm saying that there definitely has been a history of it, but taking clients to lapdancing clubs now would be accepted as inappropriate.

As for without clients, the last time I was definitely aware that male colleagues frequented such places together was about five years ago. If my current collegues do so I have seen no evidence of it.

Clients, no, never. No one (as far as I'm aware) would ever think they would get away with that.

I know one man who got the sack for emailing pornograph material to a friend at a client. The client's IT team picked it up, client complained and said they expected him to be appropriately disciplined. Don't remember anyone having any particular sympathy for him.

Also, ten years ago, saw a notice up on the wall at a competitor making it clear that this was inappropriate and that this was not a business expense and should not be expensed. Wonder bad it must have been for HR to put that one up.

Years ago, our HR/compliance training videos would have shown it as an example of inappropriate behaviour too but I haven't seen any training material showing similar scenarios lately.

If you're taking about after work, few drinks at the pub and then the lads go on, yes, that probably does happen still. But it's never as blantant as it used to be, so I'm not sure how much.

In my current (and previous) jobs, what made a difference in career progression was the quality and extent to which your sponsors could back you. If you had an influential backer, you would get on.

Which is where diversity training comes in IMO. People higher up the career ladder are much more ready to see good qualities in people like themselves. It's only when people can genuinely appreciate good qualities in someone different (either different through race, class, gender etc) that we'll start breaking through the glass ceiling.

Happysmiley, I agree women should not let men off. They need to make their other halves pull their weight in the domestic sphere.

As a start, they should not marry male chauvinist pigs to begin with.

happysmiley, with blackberries, people no longer have to stay in the office. Juniors have more need for 'facetime', but seniors are more peripatetic.

They do work though, on holidays and out of office hours. I know because they answer my emails at all times of the day!

And luck, of course

blueshoes, sometimes working longer hours doesn't actually increase productivity. There is a huge culture of presenteeism which suits men but doesn't benefit businesses.

The solution is to make men spend less time at work and more at home. Why are we allowing men to stay in the office? Why aren't we expecting them to do more at home?

dittany, I work in a partnership structure which is flat and fairly transparent. It is unusual and distinct from the usual corporate structure.

I don't buy into this 'shitting' on people, male or female, to get ahead. My observation is that getting into senior management is through very hard work (given) and personal qualities (very individual).

At my very "masculine" firm, you just had to shit on someone, didn't matter if it was a man or a woman. There wasn't any sex discrimination involved. (In fact, there were so few women, you'd be better off trying to find a man to shit on.)

dittany, for me personally, it is an hours thing. There are 24 hours in a day, how do I want to cut it?

I understand that women are asked to make male-type sacrifices into their personal life they are not prepared to make. But structuring society in a way that rewards women yet not require them to make those time sacrifices only works if NO ONE else is prepared to make those sacrifices.

So long as someone 'spoils the market' and starts working crazy hours, they and their organisation will naturally pull ahead and be more successful. It is not a male or female thing. It is just what it is. If you are prepared to work harder than your competition, you rule.

You cannot stop someone else more driven from working harder. You cannot begrudge their success.

It is a fact that society is structured that men are more prepared to spend time at work than women. But you cannot change the fact that harder work means better business.

So the solution is men to spend less time at work and more time at home. Because it is not possible to prevent all people from working crazy hard.

I have worked hard in my very male dominated profession for over 10 years. I am damn good at my job. I've never progressed any further than second level management, despite changing companies three times. I've been overlooked for promotion on numerous occassions.

Our unit recently found out we had a new area manager. My boss's exact words were 'i'm not very happy about that'. I asked him why, he said he wasn't comfortable being managed by a female, and that she'd problably want to sleep with him.

I am seriously considering changing profession as I fear I will never be taken seriously.