How do you model feminism/gender equality to your sons?

I often talk to my friend about this and how we would bring up our sons.

"You have to have men and women around who model respectful behavior. I would love to raise my 2ds in an enviroment where there was no gender bias, but it's not possible to dictate others behavior"

Kathsmum I completely agree with this, when i was growing up before my parents divorced my dad was mostly a sahd and my mom went out to work, he was heavily domesticated and did household chores better than my mom did. My uncles (on both sides) also were like this. One of my gran's husbands just the same. I grew up thinking this was the norm. Until I met dh. I was completely baffled as to why he literally couldn't do anything. When we first me he'd go and buy a rotisserie chicken from asda and make some pasta and that was dinner or an omelette. He was brought up in a house where the women did everything. Since I have met him I have always contended it was a cultural thing. In the Caribbean, men are expected to be able to look after themselves and contribute to the household from an early age, whereas where my dh is from, the men aren't expected to do anything.

To counter this I expect I shall be domesticating my son from an early age. Even now at 5 he's expected to clean up after himself and as he gets older he will be given more and more responsibilities in the house, so that he doesn't just see it as "women's work". Also if dh doesn't help out (which I can't control) it's my job to make it known that I'm not happy. IF I just sit there and carry on without saying, your father should be doing this too, then surely I'd just be continuing the cycle as when ds gets married he will just expect the wife and kids to do everything for him.

"I've also noticed that boys are often "let off" tasks more than girls are, as less is expected of them in terms of concentration and 'domestic responsibility', for want of a better phrase. It's as if girls are expected to be helpful, but anything boys do is seen as an added extra for which everyone should be grateful."

ElephantsandMiasmas I was thinking this the other day, we were at the mil's and the wives and sister were helping here and there. My dh did a few things, literally he took some dishes into the kitchen and he was praised till heaven come. And I just kept looking completely shocked, like we did more, shit you did more but it was all about dh who had carried the heavy dishes. I think it's absolutely important to raise your ds' exactly as you raise your dd's in terms of house training and also education and career ambition.

happysmiley I think my son illustrated your point about what children believe!

The cultural influence is so so strong.

Haven't read this thread yet so apologies if I reinvent the wheel with my post.

Now that my DS is 13 we can talk about how women are portrayed in the media etc. I know he has seen some porn and this was an opportunity to talk to him about the difference between porn sex and real sex, and to tell him about the likeliest histories behind the 'actresses' (likelihood that they were abused, currently take drugs, are being pimped etc).

I asked him this little puzzle the other day - you might have already heard it.

A man rushes into the emergency room with his young son, who has suffered a terrible accident. As the doors are opened into surgery, the surgeon shouts, 'that's my son!' Why is this?

Like most people my son (who respects women honestly and hates racism and sexism) wondered if maybe the son had been adopted. He also wondered if the father was also the surgeon etc etc. Of course, the answer is that the surgeon is the boy's mother.

We then had a long discussion about sexism and how invisible it is, even to those of us who believe we are fair-minded.

Going to read thread now!

Oh dear, I don't know if things are always "lovely" either! There is a fair amount of needless wrestling, IMO! Ds1 has asked if he can start cooking but I don't really have time to teach him at the moment. But I suspect that would be the same if I had a dd. Ironically, I do sometimes feel that if I were a SAHM, I would have more time to domesticate them. But I don't run around picking up after them. I barely pick up after myself!

I know chipmonkey, it's just based on the families I know, I find it very weird and uncomfortable though! I'm sure it has a huge amount to do with the dynamic between the parents in the first place, being made worse by the dad (if around) being lumped in as "one of the boys" and looked after in the same way. Sounds like things are lovely in your house though, probably because you and your DH have a good balance between you to base the family on.

Meant also to say that because boys tend to grow up more slowly than girls, I see a lot of boys being spared work because "it takes them forever" or "they'd make a mess of it". I can completely see why it's easier to do this, but when possible I think it's important for boys to be allowed to do things at their own pace, but to just get them done. I am having to re-educate my brother like this at the moment - when he comes to stay with me I just leave him to spend 3 hours cooking if that's what it takes. With more confidence he gets quicker.

comix, agree that some of this is routed in what children actually see, but some is routed in what children believe.

I remember having a ridiculous conversation with my mum when I was 3 or 4 about whether I could be doctor when I grew up. It went along the lines of, "yes, I'd like to be a doctor, but I can't because I'm a girl, so I'll be a nurse instead".

My mother was suitably horrified and obviously tried to convince me I could be anything I wanted to be. She was particularly horrified because she was a doctor and she didn't understand where I'd got this ridiculous notion from. I still don't understand how I could have seen her example every day, but just never really believed it.

ElephantsandMiasmas, that is a HUGE generalistion you made about all boy families! My boys love me to bits, help me out, and have even been known to thank me if I help them out

I have 4 boys, dh and I both work. Ds1 and ds2 are expected to help in the kitchen and to have it reasonably clean in the time between their arrival home from school and our arrival home from work. Dh is a bit of a sergeant major on this which is a huge help

I don't think it would even occur to them to think there was a job that a woman couldn't do or that a woman should always be a SAHM. I think they believe rightly that I am nmore intelligent than dh.

The only area where I fall down is my fear of spiders and daddy-long-legs which have to be physically removed from the bathroom by ds1 before I will go in.

I would say that I have always tried to promote equality and avoid gender stereotyping when my DS was growing up .Now at 15 years old though, the outside influences are too great - school, peers, media,etc. I find I am sometimes fighting a losing battle when I hear him make sweeping generalisations about gender.

absolutely agree cat. infusing daughters with the principals of equality is just as vital as sons.

Stereotyping both is and isn't a negative thing, IMHO. A stereotype can be wrong and harmful but there's a reason for it coming to be a stereotype in the first place - because it has a grain of truth.

I think it's much more likely that kids pick up on stereotypes than that they pick up on probabilities. The stereotypes are going to be pretty pervasive; but do you actually see the person driving the train all that often, in real life?

I have no sons.

Gender equality in our home with the simple expedient of having DD's Daddy as a SAHD. My DD knows that men can be nurturing, can cook, clean and wash clothes. She also knows that women can go to work and earn the family money.

DP was raised by a rather fierce mother who made him do all his washing from an early age and made him cook for himself in his teens. Well, she was doing her MA so she didn't have time.

MIL has 4 sisters, also strong characters and two sisters who take after Dp's mother. He also worked as a labourer for his builder dad every summer.

He is hardworking. He gets up and gives kids breakfast in the morning, cooks all weekend, has never asked me to iron anything and takes my slack housework standards in his stride. He is very supportive of me studying.

The point is, it's mothers who are important in all this. Don't run round after them.

Following this with interest as am pregnant with no 1 and determined to raise children who think critically about "normal" gender roles.

DH was raised by a single mum and is basically a dream come true, cooks, does housework, gardens and is respectful of women.

Must ask MIL how she did it!

Ds who is 3 told me the other day that I must like pink as I'm a girl - that got knocked on the head fairly quickly as did 'boys don't do ballet'. Specially as his cousin, aged 15, does ballet, tap and other dance/dramatic stuff

Dh and I do domestic jobs equally, are as likely to do DIY or drive and both work.

We do try and model stereotype challenging, and I really hope that DS will continue to enjoy doing all the things he does, even when others don't think its a 'boy' thing

show them how to use the washing machine

To be perfectly honest, they are going to pick up stereotypical attitudes from society and media in general. There's a phase of child development that focuses very much on stereotypes for all sorts of things (look at a child's pictures: houses have chimneys, pigs are pink, clouds are white) and with such pervasive attitudes around they don't stand much chance of not picking up on gender stereotypes as well.

I think the most important thing is to give them the critical thinking skills and questioning mind to be able to recognise and challenge those stereotypes when they come out the other side of this phase, and to give them the practical skills and experience to ensure that they have no need to live up to them.

I have an additional problem, in that my DS (10) isn't really interested in helping out with stuff, while DD (8) really is. She'll beg to help out in the kitchen, she'll come and help plant the vegetables/ weed them, she'll demand to use the vacuum cleaner. DS otoh couldn't give a toss. She will go mental when I tell him to use the vacuum cleaner as it's not fair, she wnats to blah blah...

I suspect what is modelled for them at home will have an influence on the way they then contribute in their home as adults - so for example if their father contributes equally to housework, and/or they are expected to do the same, that it the habit they take with them to their own families.

But the messages they get on gender roles outside their home life probably have a stronger influence on the development of their view of gender roles in society. I agree that talking about the constrasts with what happens at home and what is emphasised in society is a good way of bringing this into conscious thought and allowing debate.

As they get older obviously! But even when little try to get them to carry on e.g. making toast for everyone's breakfast. Girls are often encouraged to do things "to help mummy", but boys not so much.

Funny I was just talking about this yesterday, no DC yet myself but I've often noticed how all-boy families end up treating their mums badly and acting like spoilt brats. Not that your DCs are like this I'm sure, but maybe it's something to do with the fact that the caring/housework/fetching and carrying/cooking is essentially being done by the woman (mum) for the men (kids). It's all too easy to extrapolate this out to how the world should be in general. What do you think?

I've also noticed that boys are often "let off" tasks more than girls are, as less is expected of them in terms of concentration and 'domestic responsibility', for want of a better phrase. It's as if girls are expected to be helpful, but anything boys do is seen as an added extra for which everyone should be grateful. (Easy to see how this continues into adulthood, sigh)

So in answer to your question, make sure your boys pull their weight INCLUDING doing things for other people. e.g. they don't just have to pick up their own socks, but also take on ironing for everyone (make sure that's including your clothes), cooking for everyone, cleaning the bathroom that everyone uses. They need to learn to do things for you as you do things for them.

Agree with the suggestions already made: talk about gender roles as seen all around us in the media and in other people's speech and behaviour, try to set a good example (difficult to live a sexism-free life when we live in a profoundly sexist culture, but we can try).

Sad to say it feels like a losing battle. But at least it sows the seeds of critical thinking in their minds, which - hopefully - they will draw on in their adult lives.